Trident 350

[Merlin64]

Hi, i want to build a trident with 350 to 350 mm.

- I want a very strong frame and so i will use 40x40 slot 5 profiles (don't know "slot 5" is a valid translation)
- I am not sure i like the cable chains, so my frame should be open for an umbilical solution (no can bus)
- I plan to use a dragon standard, an orbiter 2 or LTX lite extruder and an octopus pro
- no hall sensors

 There are still many open decisions, because I still have to gather some knowledge.
 This is the state of my planing.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Merlin64

[atrushing]

34 minutes ago, Merlin64 said:

I am not sure i like the cable chains ... open for an umbilical solution

Another solution could be ribbon cables.. Just make sure to run the proper gauge for the hotend wires.

[mvdveer]

36 minutes ago, atrushing said:

Another solution could be ribbon cables..

Now crimping those , to me, would be an absolute nightmare. Just the thought of it makes me break out in cold sweat. But a neat alternative for those with a steady hand.

[Merlin64]

21 hours ago, atrushing said:

Just make sure to run the proper gauge for the hotend wires

Hello, as I heard some people use a few wires of the ribbon cable for heating. My Qidi X-Plus / X-max has such a cable as standard. But some users reported they are often broken too.

I determined the space required for a 4x3 mm filament tube when it is pointing up. That's about 270 mm above the print head. The Trident could get a hood and the wires could be supported by some spring mechanisms. I think I will try that first when the rest is ready so far.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Merlin64

[atrushing]

39 minutes ago, mvdveer said:

Now crimping those , to me, would be an absolute nightmare. Just the thought of it makes me break out in cold sweat. But a neat alternative for those with a steady hand.

A good crimping tool makes a big difference. But yes, it was a long job with a few connections having to be re-crimped.

[atrushing]

15 minutes ago, Merlin64 said:

I determined the space required for a 4x3 mm filament tube when it is pointing up. That's 270 about mm above the print head. The Trident could get a hood and the wires could be supported by some spring mechanisms. I think I will try that first when the rest is ready so far.

You are taking a good and methodical approach to your design!

[mvdveer]

2 hours ago, atrushing said:

A good crimping tool makes a big difference. But yes, it was a long job with a few connections having to be re-crimped.

Got the same tool - in my hands though....

[smirk]

9 hours ago, Merlin64 said:

Hello, as I heard some people use a few wires of the ribbon cable for heating. My Qidi X-Plus / X-max has such a cable as standard. But some users reported they are often broken too.

Guess it all depends on the "guage" of the wire and what the carrier material (what the wires are embedded in) as to how to survives flexing (whilst carrying sufficient current). As @atrushing says the heater cable will need to be heavier (as that could be carrying 2 - 3 amps @ 24V depending on the rating of the heater cartridge). There's plenty of ribbon cables that are very flexible (although possibly only designed for a few mA) used in hinges but the are plenty that, as you say, are simply not designed for flexing.

The downside with ribbon cable is it's all-for-one, one-for-all design. If a single core/path breaks you either have to replace the entire cable (potentially wasting that) or replace the single broken core and have an arbitrary single loose wire.

The thing that makes me wonder somethings is wire length and signal path. Clearly it works but I do often wonder if a shorter or simpler wire run would be more efficient. That's one of the reasons I plan to look into CANBUS (not necessarily shorter wriring runs but "simpler", noting that's a very relative term).

6 hours ago, mvdveer said:

Got the same tool - in my hands though....

Yeah, guess you've got to like crimping. Even with that tool (and the PA-09 is a good tool) there are occassions when I kack up a crimp but I actually like crimping.

 

Having said all that I am sure what-ever path you go down will work as you have a methodical approach. I look forward to getting some ideas myself!

[claudermilk]

Cool, this will be a fun build to watch. So a "Doom cube" Trident? If you haven't run across this yet, some inspiration: https://github.com/FrankenVoron/DoomCube-2

I'm sure you already know this, but standard Trident configurations top out at a 250mm Z because of the leadscrews.

Finally, I'm sure I've seen an umbilical mod for the Trident (or at least V2.4 which should translate over).

[Penatr8tor]

19 hours ago, atrushing said:

Another solution could be ribbon cables.. 

 

I think the ribbon cable would work best with a toolhead PCB and breakout PCB in the electronics bay. It should be possible to use a legit ribbon cable connector on each end, like the old school hard drive cables. That would eliminate all little connectors.

Edit: I just saw the tool head PCB in the picture LOL

Edited November 17, 2022 by Penatr8tor

[atrushing]

18 minutes ago, Penatr8tor said:

Edit: I just saw the tool head PCB in the picture LOL

That PCB was a bit of a hack from some perfboard but it worked pretty well. Your suggestion of another breakout board in the electronics bay makes a lot of sense! I hope I don't have to re-wire anything soon, but when I do I might have to steal your idea.

[Penatr8tor]

@atrushingSteal away.  

[Penatr8tor]

@atrushing So let's say we needed 14 conductors and we got an 18 conductor cable... Would using 2 doubled up ribbon cable wires for each of the heater wires work? If so... just separate a 4 wires... double them up in pairs and attach them to the heater terminals. Maybe that's too much of a hack, I'm a mechanical guy so my electrical knowledge is questionable at best. Plus you'd also need to unsolder the Molex Micro Fit and install a connector compatible with the ribbon cable connector.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Penatr8tor

[smirk]

35 minutes ago, Penatr8tor said:

Would using 2 doubled up ribbon cable wires for each of the heater wires

Aye, but no, but aye.

It depends, in theory "Yes" each wire would carry half. However, it depends on what the wires are made of (a lot of wire isn't copper it's copper coated aluminium and that carries less current as it were), the length of the wire and the guage of the wire all have a bearing. If each wire was good enough for half then "yes" but saying that I generally apply the 80% rule to give yourself a bit of head-room.

However, it's definitely a soution, could be a bit hacky trying to meld those separate wires into a single connector block.

[Merlin64]

3 hours ago, claudermilk said:

Cool, this will be a fun build to watch. So a "Doom cube" Trident? If you haven't run across this yet, some inspiration: https://github.com/FrankenVoron/DoomCube-2

I'm sure you already know this, but standard Trident configurations top out at a 250mm Z because of the leadscrews.

Finally, I'm sure I've seen an umbilical mod for the Trident (or at least V2.4 which should translate over).

Hi claudermilk,

thank you, yes its very inspiring. The rendering looks very interesting. Looks like the guys are are experienced in designing 3D printers.

I am just a beginner with a very very lazy approach. As you can see the inner profile grooves (40x40=purple) has the same position like the original 20x20 ones (green). So i could use all original motion parts without any change. I will decide from part to part to change it or not . For the z-axis i thought about to extent it, but 250 mm is enough for me.

I plan to locate all electrics behind the printer (a good location for lazy people :-) and i want the printhead accessible from above.

But talking is much more easy than realize something, so i will see 

 

 

 

[atrushing]

2 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

Would using 2 doubled up ribbon cable wires for each of the heater wires work?

It was hard for me to find exact info on how much current can be carried by which gauge wire. You'll find different values on each site. The values in this chart don't agree with the Voron standard of 20awg for the hotend but it does show that you would need 3x24awg to match the load of a single 20awg wire.

As @smirk says, this could get a bit hacky merging the wires together. I found it cleaner to just run dedicated hotend wires. Also the ribbon cable needs to pick up the X and Y endstops on the way back to the electronics bay so that makes it 18 wires (plus the hotend wires) which gets very wide. I stacked two 10 wide ribbons on top of each other.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by atrushing
added hotend wires

[Penatr8tor]

I see, Welp, just thinking out loud. Not every idea is a good one. 

Here's another crazy cable idea LOL.

What if we designed a printable TPU hoop with a tooth on it that you fed the ribbon cable and to wires for the heater thru the hoop. You'd space them about ~10-20mm apart. This would effectively turn the ribbon cable into a flexy cable chain. See image. 

[atrushing]

10 minutes ago, Penatr8tor said:

Here's another crazy cable idea LOL.

My favorite kind of ideas! The hard part is building and testing all of them.

It looks like you've made good progress designing that TPU hoop, and the tooth should help center the ribbon cable in the 2020 profile slot. I found that the ribbon cable expands unevenly as the chamber heats up so I had to add extra guides to keep it flat. Also you will probably need to secure/guide the ends of the ribbon cable to help keep it aligned along the extrusion.

[mvdveer]

1 hour ago, Penatr8tor said:

What if we designed a printable TPU hoop with a tooth on it that you fed the ribbon cable and to wires for the heater thru the hoop

That's an idea I like - might even make me consider a ribbon cable.

 

[Penatr8tor]

2 hours ago, atrushing said:

My favorite kind of ideas! The hard part is building and testing all of them.

Agreed! I'm not going to switch over my cabling anytime soon but it was a fun little diversion. Now I have it in case I need or want it in the future. Or if anyone else wants it... they can have it. But to be honest, stuff like this is really easy to model. And there are plenty of variants for this idea as well. For example... The hoop could be open so that it can be installed after the wiring and so on. 

[atrushing]

6 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

And there are plenty of variants for this idea as well. For example...

The rabbit hole goes as deep as our imaginations allow!

6 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

But to be honest, stuff like this is really easy to model.

Some ideas take a little more iteration though:

[Merlin64]

 

One step is so far ready. The frame is almost finished.

I used a jig to drill the holes and cut the threads. The main profiles are connected with 4 screws at each end. See pictures below.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Merlin64

[mvdveer]

Love the jigs and precision. Frame looking squaringly good!

[smirk]

That looks robust!

[Merlin64]

This is one of my intentions 

Luckily the extrusions cames precisely cuted so the alignment was not difficult.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Merlin64