Think I buggered my Pi

[nannyogg82]

So I recently upgraded to the stealth burner with the Hartley 2 piece PCB. I couldn’t get my LEDs to work so did a multimeter check to see that 5v was coming from the pins. While doing this I slipped and shorted the 5v and 24v pins. 
 

No magic smoke but the printer shut down. I initially thought I had blown the Pi but with a bit of investigation the 5v PSU wasn’t working. I wired the Pi up to the 5v pins on the Octopus board and that seemed to solve the issue. at least initially. 
 

Whenever I print now the print cuts out after about a minute of printing. I assumed this was a problem with the power coming from the Octopus board. After checking the PSU again it seemed to be keeping up a steady voltage but I still have the same issue with the printer cutting out a minute into any print. 
 

Is the problem likely to be with the Pi? I’ve got a new PSU arriving tomorrow so I’ll try that first. If this is a Pi issue, can I just swap the SD card with any replacement? Or will there be changes I need to make on the Pi when replacing it?

[claudermilk]

Ouch. If you have to replace the Pi, all you need to do is move the SD card over, I've done that for a couple of Pi-based Plex servers.

[mvdveer]

2 hours ago, claudermilk said:

Pi-based Plex servers.

Been using Plex since it's inception way back in the day. Has come a long way since

[smirk]

Definitely ouch since PI's are the rarest commodity in the universe, if you can find one then the swap of SD card is the quickest route to recovery. I wouldn't think it was the PI as such. If it had been damaged (even with no escape of magic black-smoke) then in likelihood it would just be dead (not printing for a minute and then cutting out). If is runs and appears stable for a long while (without printing) then the issue is less likely to be related to the PI.

Ordinarily I would say take the PI out and power it from USB (to eliminate the printer) and then do something intensive on it like compiling the LINUX kernel. If it runs that to completion then it's probably totally fine as the compilation will put a reasonable load on the system. However, installing and compiling a kernel for fun is a faff.

You can install the "stress" tool using something like "sudo apt-get install stress", for example:

pi@spiderpi:~ $ sudo apt-get install stress
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following package was automatically installed and is no longer required:
  python-colorzero
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove it.
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  stress
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 21.4 kB of archives.
After this operation, 50.2 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Get:1 http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/archive.raspbian.org/raspbian buster/main armhf stress armhf 1.0.4-4 [21.4 kB]
Fetched 21.4 kB in 1s (42.5 kB/s) 
Selecting previously unselected package stress.
(Reading database ... 58155 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../stress_1.0.4-4_armhf.deb ...
Unpacking stress (1.0.4-4) ...
Setting up stress (1.0.4-4) ...
Processing triggers for install-info (6.5.0.dfsg.1-4+b1) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.8.5-2) ...
pi@spiderpi:~ $

 

Then you could run a simple stress test for the CPU for 5 minutes (300 seconds)  like "stress -c 4 -t 300". For example (nb: I just ran it for 20 seconds):

 

pi@spiderpi:~ $ stress -c 4 -t 20
stress: info: [29776] dispatching hogs: 4 cpu, 0 io, 0 vm, 0 hdd
stress: info: [29776] successful run completed in 20s
pi@spiderpi:~ $ 

There's other options for the stress testing to test memory and I/O load. However, stressing out the CPU for  5 or 10 minutes would probably give you an indicator if your 1 minute run time is related to the PI or the "printer".

[nannyogg82]

A thought just occurred to me. That the print always seemed to cut out as the part cooling fan was due to come on. I just tried putting the fan on with no print running. Nothing happened and then all of a sudden the printer reset itself. So the problem may well be with my wiring. Or perhaps the fan itself? Any ideas?

[smirk]

2 minutes ago, nannyogg82 said:

So the problem may well be with my wiring. Or perhaps the fan itself? Any ideas?

Do you have a spare "known good" fan to swap in. I definitely think you are onto something.

I guess you could disconnect the fam from the MCU and then try to run your print and see if the printer resets/craps out.If it does then something is fried on the MCU, if it runs to completion (with a horrible print no doubt) then it is either the wiring or the fan itself. Unless you been rummaging around and accidentally managed to short wires together (?!) then perhaps something fried on the fan.

[mvdveer]

17 minutes ago, nannyogg82 said:

the part cooling fan was due to come on

Can also try to move the plug of the fan to a different fan port on the octopus board as you may have fried that specific fan port on the board

[nannyogg82]

17 hours ago, mvdveer said:

Can also try to move the plug of the fan to a different fan port on the octopus board as you may have fried that specific fan port on the board

So I moved the fan port and that solved that particular issue. I also replaced the 5v psu.

However, now when I try to print I still get the same cutout about a minute in. It displays one of either two messages.

Either, conctact was lost with the MCU, or

 

Heater extruder not heating at expected rate
See the 'verify_heater' section in docs/Config_Reference.md
for the parameters that control this check.

I don't see why the verify heater message should kick in about one minute into the print as its working perfectly for at least half an hour heat soaking before I start printing.

Its the Pi isn't it?

 

[nannyogg82]

18 hours ago, smirk said:

Definitely ouch since PI's are the rarest commodity in the universe, if you can find one then the swap of SD card is the quickest route to recovery. I wouldn't think it was the PI as such. If it had been damaged (even with no escape of magic black-smoke) then in likelihood it would just be dead (not printing for a minute and then cutting out). If is runs and appears stable for a long while (without printing) then the issue is less likely to be related to the PI.

Ordinarily I would say take the PI out and power it from USB (to eliminate the printer) and then do something intensive on it like compiling the LINUX kernel. If it runs that to completion then it's probably totally fine as the compilation will put a reasonable load on the system. However, installing and compiling a kernel for fun is a faff.

You can install the "stress" tool using something like "sudo apt-get install stress", for example:

pi@spiderpi:~ $ sudo apt-get install stress
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following package was automatically installed and is no longer required:
  python-colorzero
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove it.
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  stress
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 21.4 kB of archives.
After this operation, 50.2 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Get:1 http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/archive.raspbian.org/raspbian buster/main armhf stress armhf 1.0.4-4 [21.4 kB]
Fetched 21.4 kB in 1s (42.5 kB/s) 
Selecting previously unselected package stress.
(Reading database ... 58155 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../stress_1.0.4-4_armhf.deb ...
Unpacking stress (1.0.4-4) ...
Setting up stress (1.0.4-4) ...
Processing triggers for install-info (6.5.0.dfsg.1-4+b1) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.8.5-2) ...
pi@spiderpi:~ $

Then you could run a simple stress test for the CPU for 5 minutes (300 seconds)  like "stress -c 4 -t 300". For example (nb: I just ran it for 20 seconds):

pi@spiderpi:~ $ stress -c 4 -t 20
stress: info: [29776] dispatching hogs: 4 cpu, 0 io, 0 vm, 0 hdd
stress: info: [29776] successful run completed in 20s
pi@spiderpi:~ $ 

There's other options for the stress testing to test memory and I/O load. However, stressing out the CPU for  5 or 10 minutes would probably give you an indicator if your 1 minute run time is related to the PI or the "printer".

Ok, I tried this with the 300 second setting and it just says that a successful run was completed. Is this indicative of the problem not being with the Pi?

Could it be the wiring for the toolhead? The only thing I'm not sure about with the wiring was the Ground and AGround pins. I have read multiple different options of how to treat these. Many people say that I should run the ground wire on the toolhead to the V- and ground terminals on the PSU. Is this right? I thought the ground always had to be isolated? And could this be the source of my problems? I currently have the ground running to the V- on the PSU and the AGnd I have left next to the thermistor signal pin. I tried moving this wire to the ground of the PSU and the thermistor no longer worked. Should I try bridging the two wires and see if that works? I'm obviously reluctant to do so but that seems to be the advice...

[nannyogg82]

One final thought. I am running a Phaetus Rapido hotend with the PT1000 thermistor. I have seen somewhere that this runs at a high wattage, could that be causing issues with the PCB? And can the run wattage be reduced in Klipper if necessary?

[Maurici]

Try extrude 1000mm of filament at a quickish flow with all in printing conditions but without moving motors other than the extruder(hot bed, hot hotend, fans in and so) and report back.

You should try to isolate the problem.

Deffo isn't the Pi. The pi stays alive and reports the error message back.

Whatever is happening is happening in the octopus.

You may have fried one (or various) mosphets on the fan board, rgb circuit, who knows. The message that is giving you is that it cant keep the temperature while extruding. Either because the mosphet of the extruder shuts off, or because i doesn't have enough power.

You cant change how much current a resistor is drawing only by software, this is basically on and of. If the heating element has very low resistance and therfore really high power, your PSU may be short on output to keep it all alive...

Edited March 4, 2023 by Maurici

[nannyogg82]

16 minutes ago, Maurici said:

Try extrude 1000mm of filament at a quickish flow with all in printing conditions but without moving motors other than the extruder(hot bed, hot hotend, fans in and so) and report back.

You should try to isolate the problem.

Deffo isn't the Pi. The pi stays alive and reports the error message back.

Whatever is happening is happening in the octopus.

You may have fried one (or various) mosphets on the fan board, rgb circuit, who knows. The message that is giving you is that it cant keep the temperature while extruding. Either because the mosphet of the extruder shuts off, or because i doesn't have enough power.

You cant change how much current a resistor is drawing only by software, this is basically on and of. If the heating element has very low resistance and therfore really high power, your PSU may be short on output to keep it all alive...

Ok, I think I have narrowed it down. I am now getting that message all the time when I try to heat the hotend. The thermistor is definitely working. I had this issue before when I first moved to the rapido hotend. The HE0 port blew midway through a print and the only way I could resolve it was to move the terminals to a different HE port.

The issue is sort of moot now anyway, as it seems that I NEVER learn my lesson and I have just blown the rest of the board trying to get a reading with my multimeter....

My stupidity aside I think this is the same issue I had before. Is there some way to stop the rapido hotend from blowing when I get a new board? On closer inspection I can see blownout components next to both the HE ports. Should I use the PA1 bed heater for the rapido in future?

[Maurici]

Oh bollocks. this is inconvenient, but at least is detected.

If is of any consolation, I blew two SKR E3V3 on a row due an undetected short circuit on a fan... thankfully I was able to process a warranty for both... despite it was quite sketchy... Amazon behaved very, very well with me.

To the topic... I´m guessing the board is pretty much dead right now. If you have an additional heater channel available, you may aswell do a hailmary and try another channel.  Better do all the trials you may do with the current board before blowing 70 bucks on a new one.

As far as I know doesn´t matters if is a bed or an extruder heater but honestly I´m not entirely sure, but if you set up your printer.cfg to bring current there, and is controlled by the correct thermistor, i don´t see a reason why it should not work.

 

I´m not sure how to do the checks, but If I remember well... the rapido works with a ceramic PTC heater, isn´t it? is not really a coil style resistor? it could be that the PTC isn´t in good condition and keeps blowing your heater mosphets?

 

 

 

[nannyogg82]

1 hour ago, Maurici said:

Oh bollocks. this is inconvenient, but at least is detected.

If is of any consolation, I blew two SKR E3V3 on a row due an undetected short circuit on a fan... thankfully I was able to process a warranty for both... despite it was quite sketchy... Amazon behaved very, very well with me.

To the topic... I´m guessing the board is pretty much dead right now. If you have an additional heater channel available, you may aswell do a hailmary and try another channel.  Better do all the trials you may do with the current board before blowing 70 bucks on a new one.

As far as I know doesn´t matters if is a bed or an extruder heater but honestly I´m not entirely sure, but if you set up your printer.cfg to bring current there, and is controlled by the correct thermistor, i don´t see a reason why it should not work.

I´m not sure how to do the checks, but If I remember well... the rapido works with a ceramic PTC heater, isn´t it? is not really a coil style resistor? it could be that the PTC isn´t in good condition and keeps blowing your heater mosphets?

Well you live and learn. 
 

I found this on the LDO site about the Rapido 

 

https://docs.ldomotors.com/en/voron/voron2/kit-errata

[mvdveer]

18 minutes ago, nannyogg82 said:

I found this on the LDO site about the Rapido 

Thanks for sharing - certainly will help some other user. Well you are now in good company, not that it hurts less - I blew an Octopus board through a fan short out. Be very careful with PCB - they sometimes have the fan polarity switched and when you attach GND to the PCB to the assumed GND terminal, you inadvertently then attach this to power, and on the controller you assumed it was ground thus creating a short circuit. As I said, learned this the hard way

[nannyogg82]

Just now, mvdveer said:

Thanks for sharing - certainly will help some other user. Well you are now in good company, not that it hurts less - I blew an Octopus board through a fan short out. Be very careful with PCB - they sometimes have the fan polarity switched and when you attach GND to the PCB to the assumed GND terminal, you inadvertently then attach this to power, and on the controller you assumed it was ground thus creating a short circuit. As I said, learned this the hard way

I’m glad it was the board rather than the pi. Much easier and cheaper to replace. Lol

[nannyogg82]

1 hour ago, Maurici said:

Oh bollocks. this is inconvenient, but at least is detected.

If is of any consolation, I blew two SKR E3V3 on a row due an undetected short circuit on a fan... thankfully I was able to process a warranty for both... despite it was quite sketchy... Amazon behaved very, very well with me.

To the topic... I´m guessing the board is pretty much dead right now. If you have an additional heater channel available, you may aswell do a hailmary and try another channel.  Better do all the trials you may do with the current board before blowing 70 bucks on a new one.

As far as I know doesn´t matters if is a bed or an extruder heater but honestly I´m not entirely sure, but if you set up your printer.cfg to bring current there, and is controlled by the correct thermistor, i don´t see a reason why it should not work.

I´m not sure how to do the checks, but If I remember well... the rapido works with a ceramic PTC heater, isn´t it? is not really a coil style resistor? it could be that the PTC isn´t in good condition and keeps blowing your heater mosphets?

It’s well and truly dead now. The LEDs on the board won’t even come on. Lol

[mvdveer]

1 minute ago, nannyogg82 said:

Much easier and cheaper to replace. Lol

Thats true, but still sucks!

[smirk]

Definitely an "interesting" journey, and excellent that you shared it. I'm glad you got it diagnosed. I have to confess my vorons (v0) have really been the only machines that I've built where I have not used an external Mosfet/ssr to control the feed to the hot-stuff (bed or hotend), not so much to protect the MCU board but more because I did not trust the quality of the mosfets on the MCU board (not that the external mosfets are really any better quality ). Guess it's a useful reminder, but still just changing which bit of the printer is the sacrifical part: external mosfet/ssr or MCU.

[nannyogg82]

So I finally got round to switching out the board today. Thankfully everything is working apart from the 24v power for the print head from PA1 Bed Out port. 
I changed the extruder heater in the printer.cfg but I can’t get any voltage from those pins. 
 

So mine is a formbot kit and I used the wiring guide from the Voron manual (picture 1). I assumed from this setup that bed out isn’t getting any power. So I tried adding power to the bed in port by bridging with two short wires like the top two pictures are bridged. I made sure the polarities were right, but after doing this I tried the part fan and the printer immediately shut down. 
 

My previous post about the Rapido issue is from the LDO build and they have a different wiring guide (picture 2). 
Did I make a mistake the first time bridging those connections? Should I wire it like the LDO picture with the three positives bridged with one negative? Or should I just run wires direct to the PSU?

 

[smirk]

When you say shutdown, did Klipper produce some sort of error or "panic message" when you turned on the part-cooling fan? Guess the first thing I would do, if you haven't already tried, is to undo the "bridging" wiring to the BED-IN just to make sure they're related. (Bridging like that should be fine, as long as you're using decent guage wires)

A bit of a daft question, what are you using to power the bed if you're using bed-out to power the hotend?

[nannyogg82]

11 minutes ago, smirk said:

When you say shutdown, did Klipper produce some sort of error or "panic message" when you turned on the part-cooling fan? Guess the first thing I would do, if you haven't already tried, is to undo the "bridging" wiring to the BED-IN just to make sure they're related. (Bridging like that should be fine, as long as you're using decent guage wires)

A bit of a daft question, what are you using to power the bed if you're using bed-out to power the hotend?

The power to thec SSR is coming from HE1, and that’s working fine. 

When it immediately shut down it displayed the “lost contact with the MCU” message. 

[claudermilk]

When building my Trident, I followed the diagram with the jumpered wires on the controller like you show. It was recommended to me to run separate wires from the power supply, so I did that.

How it started:

How it ended (current wiring):

[mvdveer]

7 hours ago, claudermilk said:

It was recommended to me to run separate wires

I always run separate wires - my small mind thinks it is safer that way

[Maurici]

Curious. I Indeed bridged them... all comes and goes from the same conductor. from the point of physics is exactly the same... as long as the wires used are of the adequate section... 

Actually using a single pair one from the PSU to the board and bridging from there, is arguably safer as the possibility of a bad crimp or a lose live hitting something are halved.

Either option is ok, but neither of them should be reason of failure!

[leo etchaas]

I think they advise to run separate wires so that in case you can't find for any reason the good section of cable at the harware store or online, you can use slightly thinner cable and it will be all right.
Maybe because they know that peoples doing this may not have built 10 machines on their own before. A lot of the building instruction in this guide are beginner oriented and some are expert advice. That's also why I like voron ! It's a project from experts to the people and experts ! Not from experts to experts only.
I built a voron and so far I has been a great adventure

Edited March 18, 2023 by leo etchaas