eSUN ABS+ Weak layer adhesion

[DelphiXE]

Hello,

yesterday I got some ABS+ from eSUN shipped to be used in some machine building application.
After setting up the printer profile accordingly to the eSUN documentation (eSUN-Fast-filaments-print-parameters.pdf (esun3d.com)) I started a test print to validate the material. (Simple 15mm x 15mm tower)
I noticed that in contrast to the normal ABS I have laying around (and also PLA) the layer adhesion is pretty bad and I can crack the print with "not that much force" (I still had to use pliers) straight at the layer line. In contrast to the normal ABS where I was not able to split the print clean at the layer line and I also had to use way more force to rip anithing of the wall.

Does anyone had the same problems with this filament and is there a fix to it? 

For the used printer profile:
Except the values from manual I set the minimal layer time to 15 sec.
I also checked, if I can print it with higher temps (up until I got temperature artifacts) but there was no improvement. 

The ABS and ABS+ towers are printed with the same temperature (red is ABS and violett is the ABS+ one).

 

[TitusADuxass]

I have found that you need to print this filament hot and slow otherwise you'll get bad layer adhesion.

When I say slow, I mean really slow.

I printed many parts for my v0.1 with this filament.

The biggest was the single piece lid frame.

I don't know if this will work - https://photos.app.goo.gl/n89UzQCQa5qJ5jbx7

Edited April 22 by TitusADuxass

[DelphiXE]

Thank you for the insight.

At which temps and speeds did you print your Frame? It looks a lot stronger, than the things I got from that filament.

I printed the tower you saw at 15 sec per layer so aprox. 30-40 mm/s print speed and 270°C print temp (so I think im not to cold?)
I also noticed, that my build plate was running much lower on temp (got really bad layer adhesion with normal ABS and woundered why) than the sensor reported (seams like a not so uncommon formbot issue I for now jusrt raised the temp of the buildplate).

Maybe it would also help to increase my infill density? 
 

I will try to print with more infill, 15mm/s speed and a properly heated bed and report back. 

[TitusADuxass]

I printed it with v2.4 in the base config.

Max Velocity: 300

Max Acceleration: 3000

Max Flow 12 - this is probably the biggest limiter.

Bed: 105

Nozzle: 255

[DelphiXE]

So, here is the report back:

I talked also to someone from eSUN (Amazon product help) and they suggested, that I should increase my extrusion rate by 5% and lower my layer height.

I printed a test tower with 5% but was not that happy with the result and tried 10%:
So print profile:

Hotend Temp: 255°C
Bed Temp: close to 105°C (I have not infrared thermometer, so I canÄt validate the actual temp of the bed)
Max Flow: 5mm^3/s
Layer Height: 0,1mm
Layer time: 5sec, with 15% cooling fan
Printer chamber preheated to about 30°C

I got way better strength than before. That said, it's not even close to normal abs. I still can (with enough force) split the print at layerlines wich is something I can't with normal ABS. I also noticed, that the further up I go in the tower from the buildplate, the easier it becomes to break the layers. (Printer chamber was preheated to ab. 30°C)

The Image shows, that I was able to rip the layers of clean at the to, while not so much at the bottom. 
(The left pice is the most top one, the right the most bottom)

I also noticed some strange line at the top of the hole, that I inserted in the test tower, I will show a photo after I printed another tower with some slight modifications to the print parameters.

[DelphiXE]

Update 2:

I set my layerlines to 0,05mm and my temp to 265 °C.

Now I have a really strong and reliable part, which does not easily break at the layer lines.

I will re-test with a larger part and see, how the material behaves at a bigger scale. 

[Dirk]

I use some cheap ABS from AliExpress (Geetech) at 10 - 20 euros a kilo of filament. I have real ABS with all of its features.

I have never been able to rip my parts apart. Not even when I had my extruder not tuned appropriately (It was extruding 10cm when I asked for 20).

You say AMAZON, right? I would simply send it back and get ABS that works normally. Not waste your time, money, plastic to such an inferior product.

But that is me.

[Hun73rdk]

30c for chamber is to little for ABS and ASA it needs to be about 50c or else the layers starts to separate

[DelphiXE]

12 hours ago, Hun73rdk said:

30c for chamber is to little for ABS and ASA it needs to be about 50c or else the layers starts to separate

I would strongly disagree. 

1. These temps are optimal but realistically only with a heated build chamber and really good insulation.
   Since my printer has no chamber heater, this is of the table. Shure, I have no thermostat in my printer, so all I can do is an educated guess, but I would say the max temp I got to is 40-45°C Chamber temp. A 300mm Voron has a lot of air mass and cooling surface...
   Also I printed a tower after a 9h ABS print and had the same issues, maybe slight improvements.
2. You can print ABS at low speeds on unenclosed printers fine. The main problem here is warping
3. The ABS Tower you saw was printed on a "cold" printer. No preheating, just a (at this point not even properly) heated build plate. No Issues what so ever.

So I come to the conclusion, that your claim is just not right. Maybe for "optimal" layer adhesion. But not as generalisation.

Edited April 25 by DelphiXE

[TitusADuxass]

12 hours ago, Hun73rdk said:

30c for chamber is to little for ABS and ASA it needs to be about 50c or else the layers starts to separate

I disagree with regards to the 50c level.

i rarely have temps above 45c and still have good prints.

[claudermilk]

I'll also disagree. I have my Trident set to wait for 30C to start printing ABS, and I wee it get up to about 45-48C. Zero issues with layer adhesion on any parts printed that way. 80-90% of the Trident's ABS parts are still the ones printed on the Prusa Mini+ under a carboard box--which was very doubtfully even 30C and those are all still functioning fine after 2+ years.

[MrSprinklz]

Same as the posts above me. I have my 350mm V2.4 heatsoak to 40-45C and it usually reaches about 50 by the end of a medium sized print, but not always. And for the 2-3 print span I told it to wait for 50C, it took nearly an hour between the bed hitting 100C and the chamber hitting 50C. @DelphiXE you should add a chamber thermistor (back of gantry or toolhead mounted outside a cable door) and you'll be surprised how hot your chamber actually gets with just "passive" heating from the buildplate and some bed fans. I have no active heater, no insulation, and the only upgrade that might keep in heat a little better is the clicky clack front door.

[Hun73rdk]

Put 2 5010 under the bed and it takes no time getting to a chamber temp of 50 also there are stuff in the default config for a voron that is wrong if your on 230v set the max power of heater_bed to max_power: 1.0 then it will heat much faster.
As a person that had to print all my part on a printer with no enclosure i will disagree on that the abs has good layer adhesion on low chamber temp the amount of parts i had to reprint when the box i put my printer in was under 40c is insane they are braking in no time so had to reprint it all when my friend got hold of a used voron to make my printer parts last.

[DelphiXE]

2 hours ago, Hun73rdk said:

Put 2 5010 under the bed and it takes no time getting to a chamber temp of 50 also there are stuff in the default config for a voron that is wrong if your on 230v set the max power of heater_bed to max_power: 1.0 then it will heat much faster.
As a person that had to print all my part on a printer with no enclosure i will disagree on that the abs has good layer adhesion on low chamber temp the amount of parts i had to reprint when the box i put my printer in was under 40c is insane they are braking in no time so had to reprint it all when my friend got hold of a used voron to make my printer parts last.

As you see by this post, I could also well be, that your printed material at the time was the problem. 
I don't know, if you retested the same material on your now enclosed printer and see, if you had no issues, but I also have some parts on my voron, that are printed with eSun ABS+ on an open machine, and they are cracking (luckly only the panel holders, but I will reprint them)

I think the default voron config has no issue, because if you read the comment, then they limited the bed heater to prevend warping your buildplate. 
So I can do some quick math and check if the default value of 0.6 is still right, but my bed takes not to long for the heat up.
 

I still have to do some upgrades on the printer so I will cherck, if I add circulation for heating up the camber. 

--------------------------------------------------------------

None the less, the camber temp does not really affect the layer strength of ABS+ for me, but I can reprint the testpart, after I'm done with my other parts, that I have to print.

[Hun73rdk]

2 minutes ago, DelphiXE said:

As you see by this post, I could also well be, that your printed material at the time was the problem. 
I don't know, if you retested the same material on your now enclosed printer and see, if you had no issues, but I also have some parts on my voron, that are printed with eSun ABS+ on an open machine, and they are cracking (luckly only the panel holders, but I will reprint them)

I think the default voron config has no issue, because if you read the comment, then they limited the bed heater to prevend warping your buildplate. 
So I can do some quick math and check if the default value of 0.6 is still right, but my bed takes not to long for the heat up.
 

I still have to do some upgrades on the printer so I will cherck, if I add circulation for heating up the camber. 

--------------------------------------------------------------

None the less, the camber temp does not really affect the layer strength of ABS+ for me, but I can reprint the testpart, after I'm done with my other parts, that I have to print.

I was printing Esun ABS
Also the 0.6 was set due to the SSR not to get overheated under the printer and nothing to do about the buildplate

Edited April 25 by Hun73rdk

[DelphiXE]

15 minutes ago, Hun73rdk said:

I was printing Esun ABS
Also the 0.6 was set due to the SSR not to get overheated under the printer and nothing to do about the buildplate

Ok, thats the whole point for this therad, that seemingly this material has some problems. 

And here the comment from my printer.cnf :

##  Adjust Max Power so your heater doesn't warp your bed. Rule of thumb is 0.4 watts / cm^2 .

And can you maybe attach a source, where it is stated, that they choose this value because of the SSR? I see the point, that with a 240V system, there is less current that has to flow so less heat and strain on the SSR but I couldn't find a Statement for that

[Hun73rdk]

1 minute ago, DelphiXE said:

Ok, thats the whole point for this therad, that seemingly this material has some problems. 

And here the comment from my printer.cnf :

##  Adjust Max Power so your heater doesn't warp your bed. Rule of thumb is 0.4 watts / cm^2 .

And can you maybe attach a source, where it is stated, that they choose this value because of the SSR? I see the point, that with a 240V system, there is less current that has to flow so less heat and strain on the SSR but I couldn't find a Statement for that

this here is from the original git for voron

##  Adjust max_power so it doesn't exceed the SSR rating. The Omron G3NA-210B-DC5 SSR is rated at 4 amps without a heatsink.
##  The formula is "4 / (Wattage_of_bed_heater / Mains_voltage) = max_power"
##  If max_power is greater than 1.0, use 1.0

Does not say anything about the warping also no matter what aluminum will warp if it has not been de stressed before milled

[DelphiXE]

2 hours ago, Hun73rdk said:

this here is from the original git for voron

##  Adjust max_power so it doesn't exceed the SSR rating. The Omron G3NA-210B-DC5 SSR is rated at 4 amps without a heatsink.
##  The formula is "4 / (Wattage_of_bed_heater / Mains_voltage) = max_power"
##  If max_power is greater than 1.0, use 1.0

Does not say anything about the warping also no matter what aluminum will warp if it has not been de stressed before milled

 
Oh well
I also found the PR, that stated the mistake: https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/pull/448 
Change was implemented after I build my printer, so I have the old, errored comment

I think I have to go and change my config to 1.0 then.

Edited April 25 by DelphiXE

[Hun73rdk]

5 hours ago, DelphiXE said:

 
Oh well
I also found the PR, that stated the mistake: https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voron-2/pull/448 
Change was implemented after I build my printer, so I have the old, errored comment

I think I have to go and change my config to 1.0 then.

lol yea there is always something wrong in those configs