Extruder skipping/clicking noise

[Wanderer22]

Voron 2 Dragon HF 0.4mm nozzle, printing PETG at 235-250C - I have extruder skipping noise + trying to fix for last 2 weeks without success. No filament is extruded at start, something it prints couple of layers then get clogged. I replaced a PTFE tube that was a bit short but problem is still happening.

I have 3 queries:

1. What are the 'ideal' speed + layer height in Superslicer? 

2. It's hard to pinpoint the problem: heat creep may be the problem as filament bulges out, I can try the spare V6 clone if Dragon is defective

3. Or BMG + CW1 not grabbing filament. I am looking for any upgrade suggestions for reliable extrusion, should I upgrade to?

- CNC aluminium CW1 kit

- CW2 with new stealhburner

- LGX or LGX Lite

Thank you

[GarthSnyder]

What does it feel like when you unclamp the extruder latch and feed filament by hand with the hot end at temperature?

What do you see when you pull the filament out after a printing attempt? Is there a length of mangled filament? A big blob?

Is this the only filament you've tried, or does it work fine with other types of filaments?

[GalvanicGlaze]

Maybe you have a nozzle clog? have you tried a new nozzle? 

Maybe you dont have enough airflow to your hot end, maybe you need a different fan

make sure you have connect infill lines on in your slicer to reduce retractions

I think the steathburner had updated cooling for the dragon, are you using the first beta version or a few versions in?

I have the same setup but this has never happened to me. 

[Wanderer22]

I have only tried eSun PETG, I will try PLA next, there is bulged out part of filament when pulled. It's around the area above the heatbreak. Feeding by hand seems normal, flow smoothly.

I have replaced with new nozzle, as I made a mistake by not hot tightened the nozzle before.

I have afterburner that comes with the kit but like to upgrade to stealthburner.

A different fan may also help.

How do you fix infill retraction in the slicer?

 

[ralarock]

I'd make certain the extruder and hotend were clean. Do a couple of cold pulls. Then check that there is no filament buildup within the extruder and hot end and hot end housing. Is the hotend cooling fan running? If not, melted filament will fill up the hotend. Have you tried replacing the nozzle?

[Snympi]

If you are having heat creep issues with PETG, PLA might just be worse to test because it is more susceptible to heat creep clogging. One alternative not mentioned amongst the good previous suggestions, is to try to push the filament by hand without relying on the extruder. The force required can be achieved by hand, or at worse using small pliers. You should be able to push filament by hand, but if you then run into issues such as the clogged nozzle it will be easier to isolate the problem.

 

[Wanderer22]

HE cooling fan is running, I have replaced nozzle but problem is still there. I will do couple more cold pulls tonight.

I run part cooling fan at 10% foe PETG in enclosure, is that too low?

[Snympi]

You can run part cooling higher, but this will influence layer adhesion and not affect extrusion at all (unless your part cooling is blowing too high and cooling your hot-end too fast). Do you have a silicone sock installed?

[Wanderer22]

Ok, the silicone sock is installed

[Fooly]

I had the same issue. In my case the PTFEtube from outside of the printer to the toolhead got more friction during the print. It seemd to get "sucked" deeper into the toolhead until  no filament got pushen throu anymore. A Version with tube connector was the solusion.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Fooly

[Wanderer22]

I will give this try if I get the right connector. Thanks

[GarthSnyder]

There are multiple possibilities here, but based on the fact that freehand feeding works fine, I'd (provisionally) rule out the hot end itself. It's not an active component. If you can freely push filament through the hot end, the extruder should be able to push filament through the hot end too. So there's most likely something amiss with the extruder.

I doubt that the specific filament or temperatures have anything to do with the issue, but check to see if you get the same behavior with PLA.

As far as theories in the "not having the right setup" category, definitely no. You shouldn't be able to stress a CW1 just by feeding PETG to a Dragon HF. That's totally mainstream and the system shouldn't be batting an eyelash.

The next step is to determine whether the extruder is totally blocked or just encountering a lot of resistance. Do this by raising the run_current for the stepper driver from 0.4 to 1.0 in Klipper's printer.cfg file. It is perfectly safe to try this out, but don't leave the run_current at 1.0 or you will make the extruder motor run hot. Just check to see if it makes any difference and then set the run_current back to 0.4. Higher run_current = higher motor torque.

My guess is that something within the CW1 is not aligned correctly. Either the filament is not actually routing correctly into the hot end, or the CW1 is binding on some part or another. See if you can feed by turning off the motors (M18) and rotating the large toothed wheel on the CW1 by hand.

 

 

[claudermilk]

I was going to say the same as @GarthSnyder. I struggled with my new build CW2 with similar issue. It worked for a while, then started clicking and under extruding. It turned out my run_current was too low. In my case I had it set at 0.4 (motor rated at 1.0 max). Bumping it 0.45 resolved the issue. I initially jumped to 0.6 and it worked, but the motor got toasty.

I still have the extruder a the default of 32 microsteps and am wondering if dropping to 16 might help. From what I understand lower microsteps is higher torque, and I would expect the extruder should be fine at a lower resolution.

[Wanderer22]

Yes it seems to work. You are right I had run current at converative 0.4A, which was too low.

Thanks to the suggestions I increase run current + remove PTFE to the toolhead.

It works with 3 scenarios below:

1. Raise run current 0.4A to 0.7A, remove PTFE from toolhead, a bit toasty

2. Raise run current to 0.7A, leave PTFE connected to toolhead, a bit toasty

3. Run current was adjusted to 0.5A, leave PTFE connected to toolhead, only small print, I will try bigger print later, still a bit warm so change to 0.45A as suggested

Thanks everyone for all rhe suggestions.

 

 

 

[claudermilk]

Awesome! Glad it helped. That gave me fits, and I ended up irritating wile.e and Logan on the SB beta Discord asking my dumb not-beta-issue questions there.

[Wanderer22]

It broke again

It appears the filament bulges out before it hits the hotend. Is this heatcreep phenomenon? Should I change HE fan?

I butchered the dragon heatsink + heatbreal trying to get the hot filament out.

I bought new aluminium extruder metal parts so will stick with Dragon hotend for now.

I want quality of prints over high speed with 0.4mm may be 0.5mm nozzle. There are other factors that can cause the problem but will dragon Std Flow work have less clogging than dragon High Flow version?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Wanderer22

[Sevenm]

Hi Wanderer - I don't have a lot of experience (as you'll see by my post). I destroyed my hot end parts twice when building my Voron. I had the Part Fan and Cooling Fan connectors switched. Duh. The symptoms were much like you describe, filament bulging out at the top of the hotend. It also melted the hot end ABS parts and pulled the hot end down out of the mount. Had to reprint parts on the old Ender 3. Once I figured out the fan issue, I cleaned out all the parts and it worked fine. I have the Dragon HF hot end. So maybe the hot end fan is the culprit. Just sharing my experience in case it helps.

[Wanderer22]

Thanks for sharing your fix/idea

I have standard Sunon, which brand of fan did you buy to fix the problem? Do you have it running at 100%? 

[GarthSnyder]

Quote

 

I want quality of prints over high speed with 0.4mm may be 0.5mm nozzle. There are other factors that can cause the problem but will dragon Std Flow work have less clogging than dragon High Flow version?

 

I have used the standard Dragon on another printer and I have a Dragon HF on my Voron. Surprisingly enough, I've found the HF to be no trouble at all. It's just as accurate and no harder to tune.

I did have a couple of (PLA) clogs on the standard Dragon, but these stopped after I instituted a few rituals designed to discourage heat creep:

1) Avoid heating the hot end when not actively in use. Try not to let it sit at temperature with filament loaded.

2) At the end of a print, purge (that is, extrude) some filament, turn off the heater, and leave the part fan on at 100% for a minute or so to help cool down the block.

3) When unloading filament, purge first, then retract the filament.

I use the same rules on the HF and have never had a clog there.

[3dKaosMonkey]

So what was the final solution here.......

My CW2 was working fine under PLA but when I switched to PETG I had all of the similar issues to the OP.

I can easily push the filament through by hand.   

I did start with a higher temps so presume it was heat creep.   However, today I had just turned it on.  heated to 225c/230c pushed fresh PETG through by hand.  Engaged the CW2 and went to extrude from the MailSail os on 2mm/s and it just clicks.   My run_current is at 0.65 and when I was running PLA the stepper got to about 45c after several hours of run time.

I really have no clue how to fix this.   My fans are working - nozzle is not clogged.  The ptfe tube runs smooth at least I think so.   I have tired with and without and it still clicks.  I have adjusted the tension to the bare minimum and nothing helps.

 

[3dKaosMonkey]

So what was the final solution here.......

My CW2 was working fine under PLA but when I switched to PETG I had all of the similar issues to the OP.

I can easily push the filament through by hand.   

I did start with a higher temps so presume it was heat creep.   However, today I had just turned it on.  heated to 225c/230c pushed fresh PETG through by hand.  Engaged the CW2 and went to extrude from the MailSail os on 2mm/s and it just clicks.   My run_current is at 0.65 and when I was running PLA the stepper got to about 45c after several hours of run time.

I really have no clue how to fix this.   My fans are working - nozzle is not clogged.  The ptfe tube runs smooth at least I think so.   I have tired with and without and it still clicks.  I have adjusted the tension to the bare minimum and nothing helps.

 

So after a few hours I went back at it... did a couple of cold pulls.   

started a print and it ran for about 2 hours... then it stopped working again... clicking...   I really have no idea what is going on but so far if the issue is the dragon phaetus I am not impressed - I have three of them only one in use right now.   1 standard and one HF.

You guys have any suggestions let me know.  I was running this print at 225c... the PETG says anywhere from 210-235.   On my cr-20 I am running at 230c for all day and not one issue.

 

[ralarock]

Have you looked for debris in the extruder gears? I had a skipping issue and found a small glob of plastic was in there. I'm guessing it happened when I pulled a filament out while it was too hot and left a small bit of plastic in the extruder

[3dKaosMonkey]

No debris - I ended up ordering some filament cleaner... not sure if that is snake oil in the 3d printing world or not but I gave it a try.

Also contacted the amazon supplier for the filament and they suggested raising the temp which I did and it still clogged and then they suggested it was wet.

So I dried it for a few hours and then ran it again and I got about 8 hours of print out of that filament and then it clogged again.

I am going to try drying it again and see what happens.   However, the same brand on my CR-10 prints like butter.  So smooth and nice and zero clogs. (Using a MicroSwiss Hotend).

[claudermilk]

What are your microsteps? I ended up dropping mine to 16 on the extruder as an experiment. No visible effect in general, and at one point the extruder apparently now has enough torque to snap PLA filament; one print job finished up printing air for a little while overnight after the poorly-wound spool  snagged. The extruder pulled hard enough to snap it. Which reminds me, I need to build up one of the filament sensor mods.

[3dKaosMonkey]

Microsteps are 16 -

I tried printing the PETG filament again yesterday after having it in the dryer for about 4 hours....

It jammed about 20 minutes into a print.    

I clean the hotend out and switch over to PLA and start printing and zero issues, no jambs.

The other odd thing is if it was truly clogged I am not sure why when I manually push the PETG into the extruder it extrudes.

so I am not sure if its the extruder or the hotend or the combination of the two.

I have ordered a couple other different hotends and will try those to see if it changes anything.

 

ERYONE PETG Filament - K-Glitter Red