Need suggestions on which Voron V0 kit

[davidpbest]

I'm new here, so go slow and easy please.    I have decided to dip my toe into building my first Voron.  I've elected the V0 as the ideal starting place.  I have also decided that since this is my first DIY build (I have built several Prusa kits before) that I don't want to self-source the parts on my first build, so I'll be buying a complete kit.  Doing some digging, it appears there are several kit options to choose from, all somewhat different from each other in ways I can't fully comprehend.  Each organization that sells these kits seem to have their own variant, and since I am not (yet) fully steeped in the complex lore of the Voron subculture, I could use some help picking who to buy from and which kit makes the most sense.  I am NOT trying to be budget focused here, so my emphasis is on buying the best of breed - to the extent that matters.   I am biased toward organizations that provide support and answer questions (I've been spoiled by Prusa in this aspect).

I see the following obvious sources and kits thus far:

• West3D: LDO Voron V0.2-S1
• Printed Solid: Voron V0-S1 Printer Kit by LDO
• Fabreeko: Voron V0.2-S1 (R1 compatible) Kit by LDO & HoneyBadger
• MatterHackers:  LDO Voron V0.2R1
• FYSETC:  Voron V0.2 R1

It looks like the Fysetc version has their own electronic controller called the "Catalyst" which appears not to require a separate RPi, whereas the others all seem to use some variant of the BTT SKR Pico in conjunction with a RPi.  Some are in stock, others (MatterHackers) available for "pre-order" - whatever that means.

I have also discovered that a Can Bus can be employed to reduce the cable bundle to the hot end, but I don't see that listed as an option on any of the above.

I'd love to hear from others about which direction to point myself.  Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[mvdveer]

56 minutes ago, davidpbest said:

I see the following obvious sources and kits thus far:

Welcome to the Voron. The Voron 0 is an excellent little printer to start you on your Voron journey. And, I am sure it won't be the only or last Voron you build. Which kit you get is entirely up to you. Some things to consider:

Price vs quality.

Availability

Postage costs

I have now build several Formbot kits (Voron 2.4, Trident) and they are all excellent (except for their wiring harnesses) . I have also build an LDO kit (micron 180) and the quality is superior to the Formbot kit, but so is the price. I have also build self sourced Vorons (V0 x 3, Switchwire). So , I won't self source another kit - the postage adds up and is not worth it in the end. 

1 hour ago, davidpbest said:

I have also discovered that a Can Bus can be employed to reduce the cable bundle to the hot end

CanBus is the way to go. Others will disagree but I have 10 printers running on Canbus and I will not go back to cable chains and bundles of wire. You can easily add a canbus board for minimal cost.  The Mellow Fly SHT36 (I am a bit partial to Mellow Fly products) is just $AUD21, so about $USD15. Well worth it in my opinion. And it suits the V0.2 well

Most kits will now ship with Raspi Pi alternatives. I still prefer a Raspi Pi, if you have one. 

Again, it is personal preference. Consider Cost vs Quality. Formbot is very good, LDO is excellent. Suppliers are suppliers - the kits are essentially the same except for th eHoney badger brand which adds some extra quality.

[ChicagoKeri]

Hi!

 I also had prior experience with Prusa.   None of the companies go so far as Prusa with support.  
 In general, you get what you pay for with Voron kits.  As with Prusa, many parts are made of printed plastic but unlike Prusa, the plastic parts are not included in the kit.  You either print them yourself or buy them separately.  
 

So far as manufacturers, LDO is well regarded and to a much lesser extent, Formbot. Fyestec is generally not well regarded. Fabreeko Honeybadger parts are just a “higher grade” of standard parts and will not complicate the build.
 

It is probably best to build your first Voron to plan, avoiding proprietary parts such as integrated controller boards and CANbus.  CANbus in particular is a whole new can of worms and is not yet well developed for VORON, unlike DUET 3D which does have a fairly good implementation. By the way, I am a huge proponent of CANbus… but if you have to ask, it is best avoided for now.  

Back to the plastics… the Extruder parts have particularly high need of high temperature plastic with good tolerances. It might be best to buy these instead of printing them. 
  You do have a choice of Hotends, the Revo Voron is one of the standard ones and is a good choice. 
 

Good Luck !

[claudermilk]

The LDO kits are kind of the gold standard. They include quality parts and have the most popular mods already as part of the kit. They also are very involved in the community (Jason is awesome) and provide great support.

West3D, Printed Solid, MatterHackers, and Fabreeko are all vendors and the kits should be about the same. Fabreeko may upgrade some of the bits with their HoneyBadger line. I built my V0 from the Fabreeko LDO v0.2-S1 kit and it's excellent. On this kit the main thing they add is the Picobilical boards for connecting the tool head to the Pi and controller. The documentation isn't the easiest to figure out, but it's a nice setup once you're done. You have a 14-wire umbilical vs the 4 wires of CANbus for that setup.

They Fysetc kits are well regarded also.

As has been mentioned, you will need to print up the plastic parts in ABS. You Prusas can do it, you'll just need to enclose them to get ambient temps up to where they need to be. Also print spares of at least the toolhead--PETG doesn't like the temps needed for printing ABS. All that said, I printed up my entire Trident 250 on my Prusa Mini+ under the shipping box. I printed up a spare set of plastic parts for it--which are all still in their box.

[davidpbest]

Thanks for the comments.  My Prusa MK4 is in the Prusa enclosure, so printing ABS is no problem.  I see the Picobiilcal on their web site, now I'm wondering if you don't have that option, what is the difference in the connection to the hot end?

[ChicagoKeri]

35 minutes ago, davidpbest said:

Thanks for the comments.  My Prusa MK4 is in the Prusa enclosure, so printing ABS is no problem.  I see the Picobiilcal on their web site, now I'm wondering if you don't have that option, what is the difference in the connection to the hot end?

With an umbilical, the extruder is more easily serviced as the extruder can be easily unplugged at the umbilical. Normally, all of the wiring runs straight to the controller, like in a Prusa. With an umbilical, the connection is the same but there are several more connections in between the extruder stepper, the heater, thermistor and fans.  There have been cases of poor connections at the additional connections involved with an umbilical setup so it’s a tradeoff…

[Dirk]

7 hours ago, davidpbest said:

built several Prusa kits

If you have already built not one, but several printers, then you are not really a beginner. So I can tell you what I would do...

Get a kit that you think is 'good' enough (go for price/quality, not the most popular or expensive) and build the most updated V0. Which would be the HexZero. Based of course on the V0.2, it has more space inside by employing a new gantry and a self-leveling bed, similar to the one a Trident has.

All you will need to do is buy a few more components.

[mvdveer]

4 hours ago, Dirk said:

build the most updated V0. Which would be the HexZero. Based of course on the V0.2, it has more space inside by employing a new gantry and a self-leveling bed, similar to the one a Trident has.

I have build two tri-zero's / variants,  on which the Hexzero is based. It is NOT an easy build. The difference with the Trizero/Boxzero/Hexzero, is that it uses 3 x belted Z-Drives, thus 3 x Z-Motors in a very small area.  The Hexzero has the Pandora Gantry, which will require you to purchase additional linear rails in order to achieve the travel it is meant to provide. You will also have to research sensorless homing, as this is a necessary (not essential) part of the build. You will also need to purchase a new heater bed as most Voron kits now ship with Kiragami beds and these do not play well with the TriZero/Boxzero/hexzero. In my opinion, you will have a cost blowout.

As your first Voron - in my humble opinion, I will stick to the stock V0.2 build, get it up and running and printing and then decide on which mods you want to incorporate.

[Dirk]

38 minutes ago, mvdveer said:

I have build two tri-zero's / variants,  on which the Hexzero is based. It is NOT an easy build.

The only tiny, weak counter argument I can bring in against this experience and confidence speaking statement is, that your builds never had a manual, and you had a lousy BOM

 

 

Edited March 25 by Dirk

[davidpbest]

Thank you all for your input and perspectives.  I have settled on a direction in my quest to build my first Voron. 

Earlier today I ordered the LDO V0.2-S1 kit from Fabreeko.  My plan is to build it stock with a couple of minor tweaks such as the “Super Ultra Mega Light X Beam” from West3D.  I may even attempt to include the fancy hex-pattern mid-plate from MandicReally.  Watching some build videos and going through the V0 documentation, my biggest trepidation is getting the software setup properly.  Although I spent my career in IT, I am not that comfortable with the DOS-era cryptic command line and config file aspects, so I may be reaching out for help with that. 

I did download the CAD files for the stock V0.2 as well as the HexZero, went through both in Fusion, and observed the changes.  I also looked over the BOM for the HexZero.  The HexZero is an upgrade I would like to attempt as step 2 in my journey, and I may decide to make it a second build from scratch sourcing my own parts.  But first I want to get the stock kit working and wrestle my way through the software quagmire.

So, thank you all for your suggestions and help.  Much appreciated.

[claudermilk]

I will obviously endorse this decision.  For reference, see my (and my daughter's) build thread.

The only real issue I ran into with the entire build was the 5v connection between the Picobilical frame PCB and the Pi GPIO power hat. You have to really make extra sure the ferrule pins are well seated, and the terminal blocks are secure. Other than that it was straighforward.

[davidpbest]

7 hours ago, claudermilk said:

I will obviously endorse this decision.  For reference, see my (and my daughter's) build thread.

The only real issue I ran into with the entire build was the 5v connection between the Picobilical frame PCB and the Pi GPIO power hat. You have to really make extra sure the ferrule pins are well seated, and the terminal blocks are secure. Other than that it was straighforward.

Thank you for this.  Your build log will be very helpful.  I have planned thus far to power the RPi with a buck off the main PSU to keep things simpler.  I obviously don't know what I don't know yet, so that may be wrong headed. 

[claudermilk]

The LDO kit is set up to power the RPi off a built-in buck on the Picobilical frame PCB. There's really no room for another one back there. You won't need anything additional beyond what the kit includes except for the printed parts.

[TitusADuxass]

I bought a Fysetc kit for a song.

The money that I "saved" I spent on upgrades (mainboard, can toolhead, hotend).

You get what you pay for. 

[zav3nd]

On 3/25/2024 at 10:00 PM, davidpbest said:

I am not that comfortable with the DOS-era cryptic command line and config file aspects, so I may be reaching out for help with that.

PI Imager seems to mostly negate that, at least for mainsail. (That or I really messed up/got lucky. )

 

Mostly just the config files that take some tinkering, but mainsail throws errors.

 

I never touched kiuah, everything seems to reference it though.

[claudermilk]

Pi imager gets your SD cad flashed with the basic Debian OS. From there, you can SSH in and follow the instructions in the projects. The command lines are all copy-paste affairs. Over time as you play with the printer, you'll get at least a little more comfortable with the Linux command line; some stuff will lodge in memory just by osmosis & repetition.

[Faenum]

I had the same experience as you, 2 prusa builds. I decided on the 0.2 kit from LDO, who have been great as far as customer care, the seller, 3DJake, however is useless.

Everything came packaged well and cables pre made so it was very similar to a Prusa build. The only real difference being instructions, as theyre not all in one place as LDO have bits of instructions for their parts and voron has the rest, so make sure your using the right ones at the right time. If your printing your own parts make sure you also print the modified bits LDO tell you to.

My kit came with the picobiblical and I had no problems getting it set up, it makes it very easy to take the head off if needed as it's just one cable.

It also came with the Kirigami bed mod which was also very easy.

If you haven't already, join the voron discord, there are a few LDO reps in there and are happy to help with problems.

 

Edited April 13 by Faenum

[davidpbest]

Thanks.  My LDO kit from Fabreeko arrived about a week ago.  The RPi 4B, display, camera, etc is has also arrived from Vilros and Adafruit, as has the Super Ultra Mega Light X Beam and solid nut-bars from West3D, the CNC Kitchen heat-set inserts from Repkord, and the Nukit Heat Set Insert Press from Naomi in HK.  I've ordered hot pink extrusions from DLLPDF, but they said they are backlogged.  

At this point I'm just finishing the Prusa enclosure build so I can print the parts for the Voron.  I received my order of ASA Extrafill Sky Blue from 3DJake, so that's ready to go. 

My biggest worry is not the mechanical or wiring, but the setup of all the software.  Although I spent my entire career in IT programming (OS development) I really detest command line setup and having to delve into all the firmware related stuff.  So we'll see how that goes - I have joined the Discord group. 

[claudermilk]

I got my LDO kit from Fabreeko, both are great for support. Definitely give the documentation a couple of read throughs before diving in. The LDO instructions are there, but not the best organized and you do have to jump between the Voron docs and the LDO ones; in particular the electrical and setup stuff. Also, don't do what I did and use too-long screws on the Kirigami to carriage mounts--that will drive you completely insane trying to get the bed leveled.

[chrisalbertson]

I think you left out Formbot and Sibor.   Formbot is likely the value leader at this point.   But look at what they are including in the kit.  S=Do you like Moon's, Stepper-online or LDO motors?  Read the specs yourself.   I certainly wanted a separate Raspberry Pi and I had a few already left over for other projects.   Then there is the quality of the linear rails.

 

One thing no matter which kit you buy, the FYSETC CNC's bed support.  The Kigagomi thing is not great.  Some are not made accurately and you have to bend them to make them line up.  Some are made of soft aluminum, some of steel.    Just toss out whichever you have and replace it with FYSETC part. The difference is night and day.  There is zero flex in the CNC part and the holes are drilled dead-on.  it makes the rails slide better with almost zero friction or play.

The 14-wire umbilical cable is also very poorly designed.   The wires are all the same size and not selected based on their use.  Then they are wrapped on a cover than make the bundle even less flexible.   The bundle is stiff enough to torque the print head.   I cut off all the shrink wrap and cover and now it works well-enough but a CAN bus is in the works.

[davidpbest]

@chrisalbertson, if you are responding to me (the original poster), then I have no idea what you are talking about.  As I said at the start, I'm new to the Voron world and not at all steeped in the lingo.  If you think I should supplement my Fabreeko V0.2 kit with some other parts, a link to them and a fuller explanation would be appreciated. 

[chrisalbertson]

OK, you are new and don't know the  terminology.   My advicethen is to wait until you are famiar with all this and make a more informed decision.

On the V0.2 the build surface move vertically.  Under the build place is a bed support.  there are three styles (1) the Veron-spec'd design make with ABS printed parts and 2020extrusions, (2) The "kirogami" make with custom sheet metal that is folded and (3) the FYSETC CNC's support made from a solid block of metal but in the shape of #1.

The Kirogami is popular but I think it is not the best.  When I replaced the Kirogami part ioth the CNC's part the vertical rails worked muvh bettr and the entire assembly was smooth and very stiff with zero play.

Here is the part

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804089321571.html

All Voron printers are made from 2020 or 1515 extrusions and ABS-printed parts.  But as it turns out several different companies in China produce metal parts to replace some of the ABS parts.   The printer is MUCH stronger if made of all metal but (1) it costs a lot more and (2) in most cases it makes no difference in the results.  Solid aluminum motor mounts don't seem to make the printer better but a very few do.    One of them is the part above.  The other one I bought is the "x-carriage" You can look at the CAD file to see it.  Usually it is 3D printed but you can buy it also in aluminum for about $10.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806162401073.html

One more bit of advice.   Download the CAD files from the Voron Github and study it to see how it fits together.  You can rotate it and turn some parts on and off and isolate a few parts.  Every part and every nut and screw is there.  All the 3D printed parts are made from this file.    Later after you have a working printer you can re-print parts as needed, or modify the CAD and print a modified part.   I just made a rear skirt paanel that has an Keystone cutout

I also added about 80 neopixel LEDS, mostly to illuminate the build surface

[davidpbest]

Thank you for that detail - much appreciated.  I downloaded all the CAD files about a month ago and added active assembly joints in Fusion 360 just to know fully how this goes together and how the mechanics operate and interact.  The Voron F360 model I found here is devoid of any joint relationships which I thought was odd.

I purchased and received the LDO kit from Fabreeko which arrived about two weeks ago.  As part of that order, I included the Honeybadger metal toolhead carriage which looks functionally similar to the one your suggested above.  The kit includes the Kirogami unit, but since I am a precision machinist, I will order the one you suggest also and compare them on a surface plate with DTI's mics, etc.  I have also received the RPi 4B, display, camera, etc from Vilros and Adafruit, and the Super Ultra Mega Light X Beam and solid nut-bars from West3D, the CNC Kitchen heat-set inserts from Repkord, and the Nukit Heat Set Insert Press from Naomi in HK.  I've ordered hot pink extrusions from DLLPDF, but they said they are backlogged.   I have decided to build the kit as delivered first, then retrofit it with CANbus later, maybe as part of a HexZero rebuild.

I am also in the process of printing the plastic parts on my Prusa MK4 which is in the Prusa Enclosure.  I am printing the parts in ASA, specifically using this:

https://www.3djake.com/fillamentum/asa-extrafill-sky-blue?sai=2775

Again, than you for taking the time to elaborate.

[claudermilk]

Oooo...V0 CNC carriage? That Honeybadger one looks really nice.  That is one flexi part on the V0 that bugs me and here's a solution.

The Kirigami mount that came in my LDO kit hasn't caused me any issue. From reading posts a while back it seems the problem was mainly the tabs to mount to the Z rail carriages were not getting bent properly, so they were out of alignment. That wasn't a problem with the LDO one in my kit. IMHO, I'd build the kit with that since you already bought it and see if it causes you any problems; if it does, then get the CNC mod.

Oh, and the LDO 14-pin umbilical isn't shrink-wrapped. There's a split loom cover to wrap it with, like what Prusa uses on their Mini, and that hasn't caused any issues.