Ramblings about Opensource and RepRap politics. (also a short mention about Skew calibration)

[Maurici]

So... I've seen vector 3D publish his calibration file and charge for it... (Something I don't like in the 3d printing community, specially when your channel is monetised, but, hey ho). Never thought twice about it. My 3D printers are MINT.

However, Stefan from CNCkitchen did a whole video about it yesterday.

I do happen to respect Stefan quite a lot, not only because I'm lucky enough to have meet him a few times trough friends in common, and is a sound guy, but also because his engineering approach I think is one of the most though on the mainstream 3d printing community.

Anyway. After seeing his video, the reasons behind the CALIflower, and its results, I'm leaning towards actually giving this thing a go. Even if is just for the giggles to see that "my printers are mint" (I suspect I'll have 1 or 2 surprises here...)

Opinions? has someone used this?

Here Stefan's video. Really interesting (and if you live under a stone and don't know his channel... start from the beginning. is great.

I won't post the link to the file, but I'm sure if anyone is interested, you'll be able to find it...

 

Edited February 20 by Maurici

[TitusADuxass]

I bought the files yesterday and have done the first measurements.

The results were/are inconsistent - I either have to improve my measuring technique or buy a better verynear caliper - maybe 9€ is a little too cheap for a "precise" measuring tool.

I'll be running through it again after I've finished with my latest upgrade (Orbiter 2, EBB36).

[atrushing]

11 hours ago, Maurici said:

vector 3D publish his calibration file and charge for it... (Something I don't like in the 3d printing community, specially when your channel is monetised

I have this same problem. There are so many features of this hobby that are stretching further and further away from its RepRap origins. I would almost expect to see a Mellow 3D CNC machined version of this someday soon.. The video does a great job of explaining the nuances of getting accurately dimensioned parts though.

If you screenshot that video at 6:37 then you will have the perfect resource to start practicing Blender, FreeCAD or Fusion !

[Maurici]

So... Printed 8 califlowers now.

The biggest diagonal deviation i had was in my voron zero. 0.12 degrees off.

The lowest (surpirisngly) was on the switchwire. 0.01 degrees.

I have also experimented with the rotation distances to compensate sizes... Situation since reverted.

Overall my printers were REALLY good... Apparently i do something right when i build them. Now are even better.

 

However it has shown my complete disregard and lack of patience calibrating spools. Used a different spool of different materials in every printer and none of them was extruding right. Even the ones with the same extruder gave me different results.

 

Oh well. I have to start calibrating extrussion factor in every material for every printer. That will keep me entertained for a while.

[netzwerg]

I replicated this tool (without buying or using the original Califlower tool). It's pretty easy with some basic geometrics and Excel sheet calculations.

My Bambu X1C came out at 0.11° skew, my Voron Trident came out at 0.10°. After skew correction, the voron is on point with 0°-0.01° skew.

I will prepare the STL and excel sheet later in the week and upload to Printables.

Edited January 30 by netzwerg

[shaneshort]

On 1/29/2024 at 4:04 AM, Maurici said:

So... I've seen vector 3D publish his calibration file and charge for it... (Something I don't like in the 3d printing community, specially when your channel is monetised, but, hey ho).

I just feel like pointing out that he's put a lot of time and effort into making this, creating documentation and he's asking for *very* little in return. You note his channel is monetised but he's also been away from the channel a fair bit fighting cancer, so I don't think throwing $5 his way is asking too much.

[Maurici]

3 hours ago, shaneshort said:

I just feel like pointing out that he's put a lot of time and effort into making this, creating documentation and he's asking for *very* little in return. You note his channel is monetised but he's also been away from the channel a fair bit fighting cancer, so I don't think throwing $5 his way is asking too much.

Obviously i do not know the particulars of his life... Witch Btw im very sorry to hear 

That doesn't change that I find cheeky that you charge to download the same stuff you use to generate content and get revenue. Then seems that your videos are just a big comercial.

Nothing personal. I think the same about maker's muse, and teaching tech and all the others that happen to do the same.

However, in this case, i did pay for it, so don't worry.

[BlackNet]

I did buy the file.  First, having been a member of places like Patreon and Myminifactory for some time now, I do like to support artists who can create models that I can sell, and that is a good thing.  Also, for things like this, the work that has gone into creating it is not cheap, nor is the modeling software. In short, programs like F360 yield horrible models, and programs like 3ds max produce outstanding models.  Ever looked at the price of F360 and 3ds max subscriptions?  

 

Second thing up.  I did run this on my Voron and on my Bambu.  My results are in line with CNC kitchen's results, except I did not see a Voron results on his chart.  My Voron was closer to correct than my X1C.  I used the following lines for correction, and while I don't have the specific values for the voron (I did not save them), here are the results I did save on the printer itself.  So far, my test prints are better dimensionally, and less work is needed to clean them up properly.  I can't say the same for my X1C yet.

# skew correction

[skew_correction]

 

#*# [skew_correction CaliFlower]

#*# xy_skew = 0.004132060131243067

#*# xz_skew = 0.0

#*# yz_skew = 0.0

 

[atrushing]

18 hours ago, BlackNet said:

In short, programs like F360 yield horrible models, and programs like 3ds max produce outstanding models.  Ever looked at the price of F360 and 3ds max subscriptions?

This is why I exclusively use Blender. I modeled this up in less than an hour. Open Source FTW.

Calibration.stl

Calibration_fixed.stl

Edited February 3 by atrushing
added new .stl with inner dimension caliper-stops properly aligned

[mvdveer]

6 hours ago, atrushing said:

This is why I exclusively use Blender. I modeled this up in less than an hour. Open Source FTW.

I have purchased both cauliflower and calilantern. I think the work is in the spreadsheet. I cannot do with spreadsheets that others can, nor can I use Fusion or Blender like others. Therefore I am happy to pay for products if I feel they will be of benefit.

Way back when I started this journey, I paid for a Teaching Tech's Patreon subscription just to get his calibration squares. He became aware of this and offered me my money back. I am no longer a Patreon of his. 

If it value for money, then I will pay. Unfortunately we live in a money driven world. Has anyone noticed the prices on Aliexpress lately? I used to source printer parts on Aliexpress at about a quarter of a price than in Australia. Now there is a couple of dollars difference. It is all about money........

[WINEDS]

So how to check xz and yz skew?  Print cauliflower in different orientations?

[mvdveer]

3 hours ago, WINEDS said:

So how to check xz and yz skew?  Print cauliflower in different orientations?

I think that is why the Calilantern was developed:

[WINEDS]

Thanks I'll check it out

[mvdveer]

20 minutes ago, WINEDS said:

Thanks I'll check it out

Seems there is a problem with the design. Just had a look at the website:

[WINEDS]

Yes something like it actually makes skew worse for some people!

[Goeland86]

On 1/29/2024 at 8:50 AM, atrushing said:

I have this same problem. There are so many features of this hobby that are stretching further and further away from its RepRap origins. I would almost expect to see a Mellow 3D CNC machined version of this someday soon.. The video does a great job of explaining the nuances of getting accurately dimensioned parts though.

The Reprap origins are academic. Open source in general is having to reinvent itself. A large part of the open source software is being maintained because companies use them, and therefore spend money to make sure the devs of the code get paid. Same thing with PrusaSlicer - Prusa's the company behind it.

The thing about going towards paid models or proprietary aspects of designs is a natural reaction to people who spent a lot of time and money to build something and who can't survive without income. It's not an easy transition, and some companies are actively working against that direction by taking paid models and leaving them available for free downloads on their model repositories... But they're a minority, because most folks realize that time and effort is worth something and needs to be rewarded.

I've been on both sides of the debate: I started as a hobbyist in 3D printing back in 2014. And in 2022 I opened my LLC trying to build delta printers for use in orthopedics. I have spent over a year and a half building up a printer design to be reliable, repeatable and fast enough that it could become someone else's tool. Having someone wanting to just build my printer's design without paying for it hurts. The same is true of these smaller designs - they take a lot of hours of work to get right, and that time is expected to generate income in our current society.

That's just a fact and it's always hurting when people who were getting stuff for free suddenly have to start to pay even a bit to get more. I respect that. But I also know that it's difficult to keep giving stuff away when you have bills coming in.

On 2/2/2024 at 4:12 PM, atrushing said:

This is why I exclusively use Blender. I modeled this up in less than an hour. Open Source FTW.

Calibration.stl 119.32 kB · 7 downloads

Calibration_fixed.stl 91.1 kB · 11 downloads

The fact that you can reverse-engineer and copy the original print file is just a proof of your skill with 3D modelling tools.

It also shows you don't believe in rewarding or attributing credit for their work to the people who developed the methods in the first place. It's not like Adam is charging an insane amount of money for his work.

The whole reason piracy and open-source got popular in the first place was because people felt (whether justified or not) that the music and movie industries were over-charging for their goods, and not paying a decent share back to the artists who had created them in the first place. By copying his design you're actively depriving the *one person* who developed the method and shared it in a way that would let you easily validate your machine.

TL;DR: not cool, man.

[atrushing]

2 hours ago, Goeland86 said:

I've been on both sides of the debate: I started as a hobbyist in 3D printing back in 2014. And in 2022 I opened my LLC trying to build delta printers for use in orthopedics. I have spent over a year and a half building up a printer design to be reliable, repeatable and fast enough that it could become someone else's tool. Having someone wanting to just build my printer's design without paying for it hurts. The same is true of these smaller designs - they take a lot of hours of work to get right, and that time is expected to generate income in our current society.

That's just a fact and it's always hurting when people who were getting stuff for free suddenly have to start to pay even a bit to get more. I respect that. But I also know that it's difficult to keep giving stuff away when you have bills coming in.

Please don't take this wrong, and I appreciate that you mean well, but you might be barking up the wrong tree. I haven't used this tool (and don't plan to). I designed and released my own calibration tool and process (pg4) last November in conjunction with my Vorpal 180 printer design. A home built printer requires calibration and I see it as a shortcoming that the Voron team hasn't provided a more useful tool/process while understanding that they might have other priorities. I also feel that the Ellis tuning guide provides immensely more value in this regard.

If you would like to download/share/print and sell/remix/insult any of my designs you are more than welcome to under the GPLv3 license.

Mini Stealth - Orbiter 1.5
Mini Stealth - Orbiter 2.0
Mini Stealth - LGX Lite
Mini Stealth - Mini Sherpa
Mini Stealth DAB
Vorpal 180 - A Printed Printer
Sherpa Micro Vz RIDGA CW2
V0.1 Kiragami Belted Z Mod

The sad truth is that any design that is published online has very little legal protection and can essentially be considered public domain. If a designer wants to protect a physical design, they have two options, trademark or patent ($$$). Copyright, Creative Commons and even the GPL licenses only protect documentation and code. I am more a proponent of the Pay it Forward model. Also, Gabe from Slant 3D says it well. "Grow the pie". I am not trying to sell 1000 pieces, I would like everyone to be able to design and build whatever they can imagine and if they like my designs and choose to support me I would greatly appreciate it.

[Maurici]

Note to self as OP... save the opinions that are not specifically to the technical topic to myself.

It was a pointless comment, and unnecessary from my side, should I save it, we wouldn't have a completely unnecessary rant about Reprap politics... that while interesting, doesn't belongs in a topic about how deviated the diagonals of your printer are. specially taking in account that may or may not like it myself, I went and paid for it.

Now I've been educated twice. One about how Vector deserves it because he has had a shit time off the channel (we all do, not going to feel any worse or change my opinion because of that), and another about reprap politics... I understand hard work needs to be rewarded. Hard work is what brings traffic to the MONETISED channel, and allows him to be able to have a functioning specialised shop. If you start charging for the content that brings traffic to your monetised channel, I'm sure you will lose more than earn. This is why patreons and subscriptions are. however this is their choice... as it was mines to buy the file regardless.

The point... this is not the thread for that. If the future me is researching info about skewness correction and ends in a pointless topic about if the file should  be worth a fiver of not, I will be very upset.

[Maurici]

8 minutes ago, atrushing said:

Please don't take this wrong, and I appreciate that you mean well, but you might be barking up the wrong tree. I haven't used this tool (and don't plan to). I designed and released my own calibration tool and process (pg4) last November in conjunction with my Vorpal 180 printer design. A home built printer requires calibration and I see it as a shortcoming that the Voron team hasn't provided a more useful tool/process while understanding that they might have other priorities. I also feel that the Ellis tuning guide provides immensely more value in this regard.

If you would like to download/share/print and sell/remix/insult any of my designs you are more than welcome to under the GPLv3 license.

Mini Stealth - Orbiter 1.5
Mini Stealth - Orbiter 2.0
Mini Stealth - LGX Lite
Mini Stealth - Mini Sherpa
Mini Stealth DAB
Vorpal 180 - A Printed Printer
Sherpa Micro Vz RIDGA CW2
V0.1 Kiragami Belted Z Mod

The sad truth is that any design that is published online has very little legal protection and can essentially be considered public domain. If a designer wants to protect a physical design, they have two options, trademark or patent ($$$). Copyright, Creative Commons and even the GPL licenses only protect documentation and code. I am more a proponent of the Pay it Forward model. Also, Gabe from Slant 3D says it well. "Grow the pie". I am not trying to sell 1000 pieces, I would like everyone to be able to design and build whatever they can imagine and if they like my designs and choose to support me I would greatly appreciate it.

Cheers dude. I didn't know it was you. I'm using some of your bits and bobs here and there.

 

[atrushing]

25 minutes ago, Maurici said:

Note to self as OP... save the opinions that are not specifically to the technical topic to myself.

No worries, and I think there is value to having these conversations. In fact, I might have slightly hijacked your thread..

[Goeland86]

1 hour ago, atrushing said:

The sad truth is that any design that is published online has very little legal protection and can essentially be considered public domain.

Sorry to go back on this again, but I'm frustrated seeing this point of view. The original califlower is behind a paywall. It's not open for public download.

And software can't be patented. You don't patent documentation, either.

GPL, CC, Copyright, MIT licenses etc all exist for a reason. That people don't understand that they can be enforced in a legal setting is the problem.

If you publish stuff in OSS/OSH licenses, then you give up control of your design.

Go check with someone like loubie3d how they feel about saying that published files become public domain.

I applaud you for putting stuff up in OSH concepts, I have done so as well. But that doesn't mean that *everything* falls under that concept.

I was mostly mad at @atrushing openly bragging of ripping off someone's hard work that's specifically not open, butt I'm happy to take the conversation to a dedicated thread.

[atrushing]

24 minutes ago, Goeland86 said:

GPL, CC, Copyright, MIT licenses etc all exist for a reason.

The Open Source Hardware Association has an informative write-up "What is a license and how do they apply to hardware?" that is worth reading. Their conclusion is as follows:

Finally, this lack of protection means that much more hardware is in the public domain by default, just waiting for you to build upon it. And that is a good thing.

A key takeaway from the write-up is that creators of physical designs need to understand the difference between creative and useful. The creative features can be protected with licenses and much falls under Copyright by default but useful features must be protected with patents. Some companies will use the Black Box method to hide their functional designs without paying for the patent process. Others share on multiple platforms a nice 2D pattern of their complete design..

Please do not impugn my intentions without knowing them. We are here to help and learn from each other. Again, I appreciate that you mean well but, this is all I have left to say on this topic.

[Penatr8tor]

27 minutes ago, atrushing said:

Please do not impugn my intentions without knowing them. We are here to help and learn from each other. Again, I appreciate that you mean well but, this is all I have left to say on this topic.

No good deed goes un-punished or un-impugned. 

I think the issue really boils down to human nature. There's the makers, the takers and the F that I'll make my own-ers. We all walk each path from time to time.

@atrushing I don't think there's anyone here more prolific and generous with printer tweaks, upgrades and unique designs on this site.

I appreciate you Bro!

Keep pushing and making things better.

[Dirk]

Sorry @Maurici that I have also off topic to share: We are all here thanks to the open source movement. Innovative guys like @atrushing that actually do not brag enough about their extraordinary abilities.

I also remember to have read a comparison to the movie / music industry. I remember all the ads about how bad it was to copy software / movies / music because it was stealing. Now it is nowhere to be seen. The idea of the internet pirates of spreading movies, music over the internet has been taken over by big US companies and it has become the standard in watching movies at home and listening to music. 
And the stealing that pirates did? All they did was free advertising, what movie companies have to do now over social media and pay for.  

All I can say, is like several others above have mentioned: if something is worth paying for, people will do so. 

[Goeland86]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:56 PM, atrushing said:

Please do not impugn my intentions without knowing them. We are here to help and learn from each other. Again, I appreciate that you mean well but, this is all I have left to say on this topic.

Sorry, but I have a hard time reconciling this statement when you published an STL of a design you recreated that is normally behind a paywall. It's hard for me to reconcile meaning well while making someone else's work available for free.

Like, show a screenshot of what you recreated for your own use? Great, more power to you for doing it yourself. Maybe even trigger a discussion with Adam over what could be improved in his own model. But copying it and giving it away? I'm not on board with that.

I realize that this is a hard stance to take, and I'm coming off as the bad guy. But at some point someone has to point it out or the whole community of people contributing things for reasonable prices, and who truly care about empowering individuals by freely sharing knowledge will go away. (Even if you didn't buy Adam's design & spreadsheet you could learn about skew and understand what needs to be checked for on a new printer.)

Because if people like Adam, or Stefan, or others are eventually forced, financially, to censor themselves because they're now employed or under contract by a larger corporation which has an interest in people not tuning their machines so they buy bigger/newer ones... Everybody aside from shareholders lose.

We all talk about helping the little guy. So let's help the little guys when we can. That's all I want, is for us to be honest and face this head on. If you wanted to share a different skew-correction model, that's great! But directly copying the original design and giving it away for free is hypocritical.