Desperation. Klipper updates mayhem.

[DennisM]

@mvdveer thank you so much for the detailed info!

Hope this also helps others. I'll see about trying to do this soon and I'll report back my experience.

Dennis

[claudermilk]

@Maurici @Penatr8tor We are the Anti-CANners! 

In theory it seems like a good idea, in practice up to now not so much. I'm hoping LDO's new concept works out like it sounds it will.

[mvdveer]

10 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

Maybe something better comes along

Might be the LDO board

[mvdveer]

1 hour ago, claudermilk said:

We are the Anti-CANners

But an anti-CANner started this thread. His raspy Pi with ADXL was the culprit, not a canbus board - just saying. 

[Penatr8tor]

13 hours ago, mvdveer said:

Might be the LDO board

It very well might.

[Dirk]

15 hours ago, claudermilk said:

Anti-CANners!

Sounds like anti-new bond. You know.... the people that locked up Galileo for telling everyone that the world was round.... and it was circling around the sun. Or.. was it called different, not anti-new but 'the-Pope-lovers'?

I think everything with a new idea / concept should be welcome. Especially on a forum where the active peoples age is around 35 - "midlife-crisis-age". You know... "back in my time, everything was better"

14 hours ago, mvdveer said:

Might be the LDO board

This sounds like the saying "a drowning man will clutch even at a straw" (Dutch saying, but I am sure it is the same in German and English - not so different cultures).

13 hours ago, mvdveer said:

His raspy Pi with ADXL was the culprit, not a canbus board

And this is a very efficient way of @mvdveer to use his communicative skills to shine all lights away from his favorite system.

 

I think CAN is a very smart way to reduce the number of cables used in a complex network of cables. In the automotive industry (I am not an expert), I think it was so succesful because BOSCH was the only one telling how it had to work. I have seen a few posts on forums, from people using non-voron printers. They think that using CAN is a mania of the VORON community. But apparently it is very popular. Otherwise the chinese companies would not come out with a new CAN board every week. The programmers of Klipper, try to encapsulate everything new, thereby apparently breaking with recent releases they made. 

If there would be a standard., where everyone had to adhere to (BOSCH - ISO) , or if the VORON users would only use one system and not buy any of the others (Phoenix uses BTT Kraken), which would lead to less faults with the Klipper code updates. 

I think the LDO board should also be welcomed, just like CAN. And this forum is an excellent place with knowledgeable people that are willing to write things down for many hundreds/thousands of others to see the solution(s).

I am sure we will not require CAN or LDO boards in a few years and everything will be wireless...  

[Maurici]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:46 AM, mvdveer said:

But an anti-CANner started this thread. His raspy Pi with ADXL was the culprit, not a canbus board - just saying. 

Shhhhhhhhh. Nobody asked you to state the obvious...

21 hours ago, Dirk said:

Sounds like anti-new bond. You know.... the people that locked up Galileo for telling everyone that the world was round.... and it was circling around the sun. Or.. was it called different, not anti-new but 'the-Pope-lovers'?

I think everything with a new idea / concept should be welcome. Especially on a forum where the active peoples age is around 35 - "midlife-crisis-age". You know... "back in my time, everything was better"

This sounds like the saying "a drowning man will clutch even at a straw" (Dutch saying, but I am sure it is the same in German and English - not so different cultures).

And this is a very efficient way of @mvdveer

I think CAN is a very smart way to reduce the number of cables used in a complex network of cables. In the automotive industry (I am not an expert), I think it was so succesful because BOSCH was the only one telling how it had to work. I have seen a few posts on forums, from people using non-voron printers. They think that using CAN is a mania of the VORON community. But apparently it is very popular. Otherwise the chinese companies would not come out with a new CAN board every week. The programmers of Klipper, try to encapsulate everything new, thereby apparently breaking with recent releases they made. 

If there would be a standard., where everyone had to adhere to (BOSCH - ISO) , or if the VORON users would only use one system and not buy any of the others (Phoenix uses BTT Kraken), which would lead to less faults with the Klipper code updates. 

I think the LDO board should also be welcomed, just like CAN. And this forum is an excellent place with knowledgeable people that are willing to write things down for many hundreds/thousands of others to see the solution(s).

I am sure we will not require CAN or LDO boards in a few years and everything will be wireless...  

You too. Shhhhhhhhh

 

BTW in the industries that matter, CAN has already been replaced by ENET protocols and i had to reclycle myslef from Automotive CAN, to automotive ENET... 10 years from now, ENET will transpire to 3d printers... And then wireles ENET...

And then...

 

20 wires to my toolhead aren't that bad...

[mvdveer]

7 hours ago, Maurici said:

ENET protocols

Please educate me in simple words for a simple mind, because in my world ENETS = European Neuroendocrine Tumor Society. 

Google is confusing: "ENet's purpose is to provide a relatively thin, simple and robust network communication layer on top of UDP (User Datagram Protocol)." Uuuhhhh? -how is it different from can?

[Maurici]

1 hour ago, mvdveer said:

Please educate me in simple words for a simple mind, because in my world ENETS = European Neuroendocrine Tumor Society. 

Google is confusing: "ENet's purpose is to provide a relatively thin, simple and robust network communication layer on top of UDP (User Datagram Protocol)." Uuuhhhh? -how is it different from can?

Mechanically... More wires.

Practically... Relearn all i knew about CAN ecus. I dont develop the software... I only mess with lables, so i know as much as it impacts to me...

Different protocol, and different tools to use 

[ChicagoKeri]

A Pro-CAN person here!  

I work on cars with CAN every day and my own car runs CAN (Volvo).  Oddly, the ENET mentioned above has not appeared in the alphabet soup where I work yet.  Wireless? Why? One still must provide power with wires and they can sneak data over those wires as well...

CAN is one of the most reliable subsystems on a modern car.   There are other Data Buses in use with fewer wires, that is just one wire versus CAN's two, and you could just blast the data over power wiring with zero dedicated data wires, but CAN is the go-to Bus for high speed and high reliability such as braking, steering and powertrain systems.  Can't say I remember the last CANBUS problem in the shop but just today we saw a LINBUS fault.  

Strangely, you can run an entire car on CANBUS (like my Volvo's 2 CAN Buses) but some manufacturers insist on using up to 4 or 5 different busses on one car! (CAN, LIN, BEAN, MOST and one or two others), all communicating with each other through "gateway ECUs". 

CAN does have its weak points of course, probably the biggest is the lack of security. When CAN was designed, cars had no connection to the outside world, hence no need for any security measures. Like an 80's car, a 3D printer's motion system shouldn't need much in the way of security either... the Raspy Pi thing can take care of that.

[DennisM]

Hi folks, just a quick comment here.

My story isn't so good - I guess I wasn't one of the lucky ones. The updates went well, mostly, and I had to change some parameters for deprecated things but that wasn't a big deal. I thought I was done yesterday and shut the printer down. I have yet to print anything yet.

Today, I get <this problem> and the printer won't start. But if I hook up a keyboard I can press "ctrl-D" to continue the bootup process.

The Klipperscreen shows me data from Klipper and I can run a full QGL and auto-z without any issues.

But when I try to connect to Mainsail via my laptop - it's dead and isn't running. I did get a bunch of "Moonraker" errors on the BTT on the printer about deprecated parameters, which I was trying to correct, but my ssh to the Pi works for about 2 minutes then kills the connection. On top of that it's very slow to respond.

I think I'm screwed and will need to reimage a new Pi SD card and start over, which I am not looking forward to. I have copies of the SD card and all my configs, but I'm sure there were other things I installed that I have to reinstall. It just seems like a daunting task at the moment.

Maybe instead I'll spend my time trying to finish a newly built 0.2 that's almost ready to power up for the first time. Maybe I'll have better luck with that and will give me some hints of happiness before I drop into the path of the 2.4 rebuild.

 

[Penatr8tor]

Sorry to hear @DennisM

If you can get into the pi and copy all of your config files to PC... then there's not really anything you need to worry about. Just flash klipper to a new micro-SD and upload your configs. You should be good to go. 

[YaaJ]

Or maybe reading the SD card from a (virtual) Linux machine.

Another way to read a Pi card, without risking overwriting something while booting Bullseye + Klipper :

- image the card (I use Win32DiskImager, it is a old trustable portable utility that works fine)
- open the image with 7zip (it reads linux partitions)

This way it is possible to backup the card, and read it under Windows, without any risk os overwriting it. On my side I have a virtual Ubuntu and both 7zip and Win32DiskImager.

Edited February 7 by YaaJ

[DennisM]

@YaaJ Thank you that seems like a good idea -- however I can't seem to get 7zip to open my image file that I made earlier.

https://superuser.com/questions/1508879/opening-dd-image-in-7zip

That says that it won't read ext filesystems (I think the Pi would use ext3 or ext4) but I'll keep trying. When I open the image in 7zip it just gives me a file called 1.img and that file can't be opened by 7zip, even if I extract it to my desktop and try opening it from there.

I'll keep looking at it. Maybe you can check which version of 7zip you're using?

Otherwise I'll just power up the Voron and fetch things via FTP since the system comes up. I also have backups of my configs so it's not a big deal if I can't read the image.

[YaaJ]

As you can see, it is an old version. If you can't find it, and want to test, just let me know. 1.5 MB only, will PM to you...

It opens 1.img just fine...
No knowledge at all about the Linux filesystem, and one day discovered 7zip opens images because of the Windows contextual menu... ; gave it a try, and bingo !

For imaging, I use Win32DiskImager, that creates ISOs. I first reduce the parttition with gparted, from a Ubuntu virtual machine, then image it under windows (option "Read Only Alolocated Partitions" being checked, so the unallocated space doesn't take room in the ISO), and finally re-expand the partition with the virtual Linux, or with raspi-config. Takes less time that one could think. Saved my life many times, since Octoprint. Can access any older config file or flash a known good OS at any time from the backups RAID.

[EDIT] if the partition can't be read, maybe it means it is corrupted...

[EDIT 2] do *NOT* resize the partition if you suspect a problem, as it rewrites sectors

Edited February 8 by YaaJ

[MrSprinklz]

As a quick tip to follow up on @mvdveer's process of flashing klipper (with or without CAN), I have a similar set of update commands saved in a file named "Update.txt" on each of my printers that is specific to the printer it is on. Whenever a klipper update comes along and I need to flash a board, I can open up the update file and just copy+paste line by line to update any boards. I also write out what menuconfig parameters that board should have. 

For example, my V0 has a pi, SKR mini E3V3, and EBB36, so I have a set of instructions for flashing each and two for the EBB (katapult + klipper)

I've done it enough that I probably don't need it anymore, but it also means I don't have to rely on memory or look up the instructions each time.

[claudermilk]

Welp. I just got to go through this. I saw that the V0.2 had a bunch of updates waiting since I've been ignoring the printers the last couple of week while work went insane. (Core server failures are really fun) I thought it had the latest-ish Klipper updates on it and was set up after the breaking changes hit. Turns out not so much, I updated moonraker and all heck broke loose. Did all the flashes and back running again. The LDO V0.2 & SKR Pico setup make it actually pretty painless. Then @cjkennedy72's instructions of updating the Pi virtual MCU for the ADXL finished it off.

I'm still waiting on dealing with the Trident. That has an Octopus & connected to the Pi via GPIO, so I have to sneaker-net the flash file on micro SD and I just don't feel like tipping the printer over right now.

Now for my next trick: Updating my work laptop to Win11.

Update: Happy day. All updates here are now complete. The biggest pain for the Trident was moving the big sucker around--after re-tightening a top extrusion that had worked itself loose, and evicting all the dust bunnies that had taken up residence down below. Oh, and the laptop Win11 update was painless (so far), just long.