Switchwire Conversion - Dual Y motors

[Graymattor]

Hi All, 

I am currently planning a Switchwire conversion on my CR-10 Smart Pro, and to me the bed movement is going to be the weakest link for stability and acceleration in the build and i was just wondering has anyone or does anyone know of any printer mods that at dual stepper motors to the Y on a bedslinger? I have seen one build but it was difficult to see and understand the set up, i have seen it suggested to have one motor in each end of the bed in opposing corners, I've seen another suggest have the motors opposite each other in the centre of the bed with one belt joining the two motors to the bed. The problem is i haven't seen anyone who has done it, I have tried searching and all i get is info on dual Z 

Having seen the incredible mods on this forum (its great to see a forum still exists, being of an older generation!) i thought i would ask here for any thoughts, suggestions and maybe even links to any mods, etc, or even better someone has complete a mod and can assist with filling in the gaps.

Thanks 

(bit of added info, i will be upgrading to NEMA17 LDO-42STH48-2504AC RevA 1.8° motors and a BTT Manta 8P with TMC2209 drivers)

Edited September 5, 2023 by Graymattor

[mvdveer]

I have done a triple rail mod on the switchwire, but only running one motor. Have not had any issues yet. I know there is a member in the forum whom has done a three rail dual motor conversion. Hopefully he will see your message and point you in the right direction.

[mvdveer]

Found the thread - hope it helps

[Graymattor]

8 hours ago, mvdveer said:

Found the thread - hope it helps

Hi Mvdveer, 

Thank you very much for the info, the tipple rail is an interesting concept, one i had never considered! the thread you shared was an interesting read, its unfortunate that it was left open at the end.

a few things that i have on my mind with my conversion,

1) with it being the CR-10 Smart Pro its a large bed, 315 x 315mm,

2) the carrier is quite thick and solid, it is also not flat, by that i mean the heat bed mounting points, they are raised up (see photo, sorry its the best ive got)

3) the current spacing between my 2020 extrusions the bed runs on are only 140mm a part at the centres, so really quite narrow

4) its a pain to work on! the base top is fully enclosed and all the extrusions have flat sides! i will be replacing all extrusions for all axis, but i wasn't replacing all the frame

The more i look at the project the more problems seem to be in the way, so much so by the time i am done i may as well build a proper switchwire! however i think that will work out a lot more expensive and I've already invest quite a lot in parts for the conversion! but it has crossed my mind and i do keep visiting the BOM!

i think the bed is my only issue, everything else should be fairly straight forward!

Things i am now thinking i should do 

1) widen the stance of the Y extrusions, however if i side mount the linear rails i will gain a wider stance (photo of what i have printed for a project before deciding on the switchwire), widening the stance could be replace the 2020 with 2040 to maintain the existing mounting points, unless i need to go wider?

2) look at an alternative aluminium bed, Funssor do one for the CR10S, but this is for top mount linear rails and i wider extrusion spacing, and actually quite price, i may be able to design and get made cheaper (see photo) 

3) i am now not sure if the dual motor will be of any benefit, that said the dual motors mounted each end and centrally to the bed with a single belt looped around both could work, but i am not sure if there would be any benefit, i guess the added torque would help with control of the movements but the motors i have are rated at 59Ncm so are already pretty high torque for a NEMA17

This is my first extensive 3D printer build so i am open to any ideas or suggestions on whether im right, wrong, stupid, etc 

Thanks 

[Spellman]

I had a tevo tornado that I repurposed into a switchwire and can offer a few insights.  Yes the y is its shortfall with the shear mass.  Doing this mod I did increase the quality and speed of what this printer (left over frame and motors at this point) can do.  That being said it is a huge time and head scratcher undertaking to get all the kinks out.  From the sound of it you are trying to maximize speed and quality to its full potential, which there in lies the biggest hurdle.  The fact that has a moving bed of that size lowers that ceiling quite a bit.  I have tinkered with that more than I would like to admit, and never really had a silver bullet solution.  In reality by the time you nickel and dime yourself into getting better this and that, you won't be far from just building a 2.4 or trident which will give much better results.  But then you have these parts left over, which lets face it, you are gonna want to turn into a functional printer so here we are again!   My advice, set a budget and stick to it knowing it won't be as good as a core xy voron, but will still be much better than a cr-10.  I use mine mainly for PETG brackets that I produce for sale and it works just fine at that, it has paid itself off dozens of times over at this point, and in the end I am still proud of what it can accomplish.  However anything for looks or high temp is done by my 2.4.  Hope some of this helps in your quest.

[RopusLongus]

As a matter of fact my build is not left open and is done so far but I did. Switch and modes a lot of it. If you got question send me a PM.

 

[5twenty]

"the thread you shared...was left open at the end. "

 

He said the thread, not your build. The thread needs closure! Don't leave us hanging....

 

You and the other guy quickly turned it into a German-speakers only thread.

[DiamondHead1022]

how did you upgrade a cr-10 smart pro to switchwire i cant find a guide for it 

[Paul Trautner]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:52 PM, Graymattor said:

Hi All, 

I am currently planning a Switchwire conversion on my CR-10 Smart Pro, and to me the bed movement is going to be the weakest link for stability and acceleration in the build and i was just wondering has anyone or does anyone know of any printer mods that at dual stepper motors to the Y on a bedslinger? I have seen one build but it was difficult to see and understand the set up, i have seen it suggested to have one motor in each end of the bed in opposing corners, I've seen another suggest have the motors opposite each other in the centre of the bed with one belt joining the two motors to the bed. The problem is i haven't seen anyone who has done it, I have tried searching and all i get is info on dual Z 

Having seen the incredible mods on this forum (its great to see a forum still exists, being of an older generation!) i thought i would ask here for any thoughts, suggestions and maybe even links to any mods, etc, or even better someone has complete a mod and can assist with filling in the gaps.

Thanks 

(bit of added info, i will be upgrading to NEMA17 LDO-42STH48-2504AC RevA 1.8° motors and a BTT Manta 8P with TMC2209 drivers)

I don't have a switchwire but I made a custom ender 3 that has dual belts with dual Y motors. Goal was to get similar max acceleration in both axis which I was able to achieve.

 

[Graymattor]

1 hour ago, Paul Trautner said:

I don't have a switchwire but I made a custom ender 3 that has dual belts with dual Y motors. Goal was to get similar max acceleration in both axis which I was able to achieve.

🫨🫨 wow!! You have certainly caught my attention, I'd love to know more details about the conversion.. this is still on my to-do list but completing other jobs before taking on the next

[Paul Trautner]

22 minutes ago, Graymattor said:

🫨🫨 wow!! You have certainly caught my attention, I'd love to know more details about the conversion.. this is still on my to-do list but completing other jobs before taking on the next

For this project I started with a ender 3 V2 and reused the 40X40 and 40X20 extrusions. I ordered 3 20X20 extrusions from Misumi to stretch the width of the printer to fit the prusa heated bed. The Y axis is on 2 linear rails to give more support to the bed and I used 2 motors from a ender 5 so that I could have 2 6mm wide belts for better stiffness. I also did a different design on the x-axis to make the printer more compact. My plan was to enclose the printer similar to the switchwire but I never got around to it. I have all the cad files I can share if your interested. Here is a video of it printing

 

 

[Graymattor]

51 minutes ago, Paul Trautner said:

For this project I started with a ender 3 V2 and reused the 40X40 and 40X20 extrusions. I ordered 3 20X20 extrusions from Misumi to stretch the width of the printer to fit the prusa heated bed. The Y axis is on 2 linear rails to give more support to the bed and I used 2 motors from a ender 5 so that I could have 2 6mm wide belts for better stiffness. I also did a different design on the x-axis to make the printer more compact. My plan was to enclose the printer similar to the switchwire but I never got around to it. I have all the cad files I can share if your interested. Here is a video of it printing

This looks like an extremely interesting design and concept! You have put some serious thought and work ot to it.. were are you with the project now? Or have you moved on? 

If you are willing to share you CAD files that would be very generous of you and really appreciated, they would give me a huge step forward, and a basis to work on if you prefer to send privately that is up to you.. thanks again, youve reignited the spark

[Paul Trautner]

14 hours ago, Graymattor said:

This looks like an extremely interesting design and concept! You have put some serious thought and work ot to it.. were are you with the project now? Or have you moved on? 

If you are willing to share you CAD files that would be very generous of you and really appreciated, they would give me a huge step forward, and a basis to work on if you prefer to send privately that is up to you.. thanks again, youve reignited the spark

Give me a few days and I will upload the files to printable. The video I uploaded shows the printers latest state, the printer has been added to a ikea lack enclosure and been printing pretty solid for the past 6 months or so. Right now its printing the parts I need for my voron 2.4 build which I am making changed to use 30:1 harmonic drives for the z axis and lgx extruder in the stealthburner head

[atrushing]

51 minutes ago, Paul Trautner said:

which I am making changed to use 30:1 harmonic drives for the z axis

This sounds pretty interesting!

[Graymattor]

2 hours ago, Paul Trautner said:

Give me a few days and I will upload the files to printable. The video I uploaded shows the printers latest state, the printer has been added to a ikea lack enclosure and been printing pretty solid for the past 6 months or so. Right now its printing the parts I need for my voron 2.4 build which I am making changed to use 30:1 harmonic drives for the z axis and lgx extruder in the stealthburner head

Brilliant, thank you

[Paul Trautner]

3 hours ago, atrushing said:

This sounds pretty interesting!

Hoping to have it together today. Will post some picture when complete 

[Paul Trautner]

10 hours ago, atrushing said:

This sounds pretty interesting!

Pictures add to this thread. With the 30:1 ratio I was still able to hit 30mm/sec

 

https://www.teamfdm.com/forums/topic/2309-paul-ts-voron-24-build/

[Dirk]

The dual motor dual rail looks very interesting. I would be very much interested in how to implement this in the y axis of my sidewinder to switchwire conversion.

It makes sense to increase the speed and acceleration in the Y direction to improve printing speed drastically. But the Z speed increase does not seem like an effective investment (to me) since z movements do not take up much of the printing time. please let me know if I think erratic. 

[RopusLongus]

Yees that's a improvement .

Currently I have a 8mm Aluminium build plate and still the switchwire can't stand more then 3.5k.

Otherwise the bed starts flying out of the door. I did test 5 to 9k accel.

The motor can handle it for sure but the construction I did is to sloppy fot it. For fast prints with 200 to 250mms speed and 3k accel I'm able to do great prints with not too much details. For detailed prints I need to go down to 100mms to get some useful prints.

A matter of fact is that I build the bed solid with no silicon or spring buffers. My solution where so called spring washer made of spring steel ( they look like this \__/).

 

[Paul Trautner]

Assembly has been uploaded to printable's

https://www.printables.com/model/693725-custom-bed-slinger

Edited December 26, 2023 by Paul Trautner

[Graymattor]

9 hours ago, Paul Trautner said:

Assembly has been uploaded to printable's

https://www.printables.com/model/693725-custom-bed-slinger

Thank you, will take a good look

So it looks like your using the Ender 5 dual shaft steppers on each end of the bed, can I ask are you using a single stepper driver with a splitter, or are you using dual steppers, or other? 

I think I'm going to have a go at the switchwire conversion, just out of interest, you mentioned you chose not to go the switchwire route, what was your reasoning? I have a CR-10 Smart Pro, so already have the dual Z set up.. 

I appreciate you taking the time to upload your model and post on the forum

[Paul Trautner]

15 hours ago, Graymattor said:

Thank you, will take a good look

So it looks like your using the Ender 5 dual shaft steppers on each end of the bed, can I ask are you using a single stepper driver with a splitter, or are you using dual steppers, or other? 

I think I'm going to have a go at the switchwire conversion, just out of interest, you mentioned you chose not to go the switchwire route, what was your reasoning? I have a CR-10 Smart Pro, so already have the dual Z set up.. 

I appreciate you taking the time to upload your model and post on the forum

I am using a Manta m5p board and canbus for the tool head so I have a driver for each axis. I did not go for the switchwire because I did not like the single rail on the x axis and the 40mm per rotation for the z axis. I think the design compromises z axis resolution too much after building this printer I can see benefits to the z axis being driven by belts which is way I am building a voron 2.4 but with the harmonic drives on the z to get the accuracy which I think is needed for a z axis.