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Hello All :)


izzysu
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Hello TEAM[8]FDM 🙂

 

I'm new here and I just build my first Voron 2.4 

I have some straggles with the hotend and the extruder.  i run now with bowden E3D V6 24v with creality extruder.

the nozzle keep getting stuck after awhile and the extruder clicking all the time.

I did try to fix them by changing the settings on the klipper and I'm getting a better results but only on a super slow speeds.

and I'm thinking about getting a better ones for faster performance .

So what are your thoughts about hotends and extruders? 

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Problem with copy of original hot-end is bad heat-break. Material of heat-break should be titanium because of thermal isolation properties. You didn't get that so heat transfer to cold-end molten filament and stuck in it. Don't get High Flow versions because you need very high velocity for that hot-end and is problematic for normal printing. Extruder motor is overheating because it uses more current than its rated amps. If motor is rated at 1 amp, you should use max 0.7 amp.

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the motor I use for the extruder is stepperonline nema 17 48mm, those guys can hold up to 2.8Amp on peaks and 2.0Amp consistence load.

the settings are set that the extruder will get 1.3Amps and all the others are 0.8Amps.

all motors are getting hot over time, I didn't notice any extreme temps coming out of them.  

 

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2 hours ago, izzysu said:

creality extruder.

I guess a question is "which" creality extruder (I might be misinterpreting, sorry if I am) but are you using something like the one in the picture? Granted that's the metal one, which is better than their standard all plastic/nylon effort. The plastic one is fairly awful, (I know it's not a Voron) but the two enders I've seen the [plastic] creality extruder failed within a few dozen hours of printing - a crack developed in the tensioning arm. That problem didn't present as a blockage (extruder clicking) it presented as under-extrusion  (because the extruder could no longer driver the filament through).

Having said all that, I think we need a little more information to provide better advice (beyond guessing, as I've done above 😉 )

When you say an E3D V6 - I presume you mean a kosher (genuine) E3D product as opposed to a clone (and not the "lite" version so it should be all metal). A genuine E3D V6 should be fine, even without a fancy-schmancy titanium heatbreak. I would not expect that to block....

Reasons that it might block are if the retraction is set too high, that's a tricky one with a very long bowden connection. Remember, if you have already tuned pressure advance that is effectively dynamic retraction so if you are using it then you have to reduce your retraction settings in your slicer.

As others have suggested if your extruder motors "power" settings are too low but the default ones VoronDesign suggest are pretty good.

Apologies, for my hand-waving speculation. Happy to help, if you can provide a little more information 😃

creality-metal-extruder-upgrade-kit-375105-en.jpg

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Creality extruder on Voron. I've never heard of that combo. Too much amps for extruder. Try 1.0 amp for that motor. It should works fine. If getting too hot again try lower. Skipping occurs when there is blockage in filament path or overheated extruder motor - magnets in motor weak as it gets hotter, especially over 80 degrees. I thing you should definitely change hot-end.

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Ok, I'll ignore my own advice and do some more hand-waving speculation and assumption (sorry in advance). I was thinking about this as I was wandering around the Supermarket.

Guess, a remote extruder (bowden) is not a common setup with a 2.4 (most are direct-drive using something like the Afterburner or Stealthburner) but bowden/remote extruder is a supported option. That's the  joy of the Voron. It's an opensource project, make of it what you will. I get it, we use what we have on hand. 3D printing is a great interest/hobby but can get expensive very quickly as we find ourselves buying the latest unobtanium heat-break, or hot-ends coated in dark-matter.

I'll make (a dangerous assumption) that your hotend is not completely blocked at this moment since you say you can print at very low speed.I'll also assume you mean something 20-30mm/s (or slower) for slow-speed.

A (genuine, or good-clone like TriangleLabs) V6 hotend is more than capable of working in this setup. Granted you're not going to be printing at 200mm/s (as it just cannot melt enough plastic fast enough) but it should be good for somewhere in the region 50-100mm/s (wide margin as there's a lot of other factors).

I wouldn't worry about driving the extruder motor itself at 1.2A. Yeah it seems a tad high (compared to a direct-drive setup) but it's well within 80% of your 2A maximum on the motor itself. In all my years of 3D printing I've never seen a motor skip steps because the motor itself has become too hot (I'm not saying it can't happen, clearly it can) but I've never seen it. Apart from mechanical/physical issues 99% of the time I've seen skipped steps it is because of the stepper motor driver (e.g. TMC2209 or whatever) is either overheating or absolutely malfunctioning. The other 1% of time is for things like the actual controller board (e.g. SKR1.4) having a duff driver port where the stepper is mounted.

So here's what I think you should do:

  • Make sure your hotend isn't blocked, simply extruding plastic (at a slowish rate, like  5 or 10 mm/s) when the printer is otherwise static  should be sufficient. I know it's kinda obvious but when I've been frustrated I've forgotten the basics and wandered off diagnosing exotic settings with pressure advance when simply it's been a duff nozzle obstructing the flow of plastic.

    The extruder should not be clicking for this kind of simple test, if it is then you need to strip things down. Remove the bowden tube, check if the extruder can simply extruder filament (into thin air) if it's still clicking that's serious. If it works, then manually push a length of filament through the bowden tube. That will let you check the bowden tube is good and not blocked, pinched/crimped or too rough.
     
  • Next thing to check is the extruder itself. You'll need to dismantle it.  As I said in the previous post, if it's the plastic creality extruder then it could be cracked or flexing. Check the tensioning arm (the bit that pushes the filament against the hobbed gear). Having said that, since you're getting clicking (suggesting a blockage) it is probably not a broken tensioning arm but perhaps the tension is too high?
     
  • Something to check/question is cooling of the controller board (and stepper motors). Whilst it's not wrong to use 1.2A for your stepper (just high) that will cause the steppers to run hotter. TMC drivers (I'm assuming you're using TMC drivers) do have a limit for passive cooling. Beyond a certain amperage they do need active cooling (i.e. a fan). The TMC2208 drivers do run hotter than TMC2209 drivers. Sadly how much heat these things produce/can take is  also down to the quality of the manufacturing and how much copper they've used.
     
  • Now assuming you found no physical issues in the first steps then I think you should look at your retraction settings in the slicer (I am assuming you've focussed on klipper only settings). The only thing I would do in klipper would be to turn off pressure advance (by setting pressure_advance to 0 in the printer.cfg file). As I said previously pressure advance is changing retraction on the fly.

    The challenge is finding a good retraction setting, for a direct-drive E3D V6 setup I think E3D recommend somewhere between 0.5mm - 2mm. Naturally with a long bowden tube you need a much higher retraction like 8mm (but too high and you end up blocking the nozzle). Also experiment with retraction speed. Personally I keep retraction speed low (25mm/s) as higher speeds in my experience lead to blockages.

    I guess as a quick and dirty test you could simply turn off retraction altogether and try printing at the higher speed (noting that "high" is nowhere near the maximum speed the Voron mechanicals are capable of as the V6 cannot melt plastic fast enough). That would produce a horribly stringy print but would allow you to test that the extruder can manage and home in on retraction as the issue.

 

Sorry if that's a little vague and speculative but hopefully it'll be of use. I can sympathise as (like many of us) I've had plenty of issues diagnosing troublesome extruder setups.

 

 

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Just checked, Watterott (who make excellent TMC based drivers) recommend a large heat sink and fan when running their TMC2209 drivers over 1A (RMS). So definitely check that you have active cooling.

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thank you all for the valued information,

ill try set my steppers to 1.2Amps and change my extruder with a better one.

at the moment I'm waiting for my Amazon shipment of the new V6, dual drive BMG and Voron M4.

the current V6 destroyed by me when I tried disassemble it and bend the heat-sink. 😅

 

image.thumb.png.c52cc2162c3e62ae15476971ff9f803e.png

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