ASA Warping Solution?

[BrentDW]

Hi, folks. I hope everyone is having a great weekend.

I am trying to print a tall, thin part in ASA on a Voron 2.4 and it keeps coming up from the bed at the edges (see red circled area in pic).  I'm using a 10mm brim and an enclosed chamber and I preheated the chamber, slowed down the first layer to 50 mm/s (105 for infill), turned the part cooling fan off, and lowered the first layer height to 0.18mm for more squish. 

I'm running Polymaker Polylite ASA with a bed temp of 110 for first layer and 105 thereafter and a nozzle temp of 270 first layer and 260 thereafter.  The recommended bed and nozzle temps are 75-95 and 240-260, so my settings are intentionally hotter than normal. The print bed is a textured PEI sheet that I cleaned well with soap and water and then alcohol.

I'd planned to let the part cool in the heated chamber for slower cooling, but the warping is starting before the print is finished.  One issue could be the ambient air temperature.  My printer is inside my house in a small room.  When I print, I put an exhaust fan in the window for the fumes and close the door to the room.  Since it's cold outside, it drops the ambient temp in the room to 55-60.  I don't have a thermometer in the enclosure, but my expectation was that the sealed, enclosed chamber would retain sufficient heat that close to the bed.  I actually taped up any gaps in the acrylic enclosure so it should be pretty close to air tight.

The part has full contact with the bed given the profile, so a raft doesn't seem to make sense.  I could lay it down flat with a raft and/or supports, but would rather not have to clean up the surface.  Plus, I have other parts to print that likely will create this same issue so would like to better understand more permanent solutions, if there are any.

What I have NOT tried yet is a PVA glue stick or other adhesive, slowing the first layer down even further, buying a chamber heater, or insulating the enclosure.  It takes a lot of time and resin for each print, so rather than keep experimenting I thought I'd check with this board and see if there are other fixes or if I'm just barking up an empty tree.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.

[polygonprint]

Hi BrentDW,

I have been doing a bit of printing with PolyLite ASA of late. I find low or no part cooling works better, especially for larger parts. Check your part cooling settings. If your using OrcaSlicer or BambuLab I think the cooling fans are set reasonably high by default. I also find a textured plate doesn't have quite as good a holding strength as smooth PEI. I use a little bit of bed adhesive on my smooth PEI as ASA tends to be difficult to remove afterwards. I'm no expert, but the above is what I have found with PolyLite ASA. For your part in particular, I would use no part cooling (fan off).

[VoronManiac]

@BrentDW The chamber temp will be the deal breaker.  A 10C delta can be night and day.  Consider adding a thermistor to monitor the temp.  Knowledge is power.   I regularly print Zyltech ABS & ASA at 120C first layer then 110C remaining.  Max out the first layer nozzle temp with a slow first layer which it sounds like you are doing.  Make sure the printer temperature stabilizes for at least 40 minutes if the total time on the first layer is long because the printer will still be expanding otherwise.  For ABS & ASA my slicer macros are configured to heat the chamber to 48C before starting QGL which usually is about 20minutes.  Typ chamber temp after a few layers is around 60C.  Add some over extrusion multiplier for the first layer in the Slicer.  Textured PEI needs a little extra to fill in the texture valleys. When the part releases from the  bed while printing, it is caused by stress building in the upper layers, so it is not just the first few layers that need to be kept hot.

Consider sealing up the printer as much as possible. Add some pieces of insulating foam board around the printer.  I have no issues with ASA/ABS fumes when using the Aire filters, so no need to vent to the outside.  Nano particles still TBD. The Aire moves a bit of air inside the chamber so there is a slight boost in passive heating.

Lately I have been printing on bare uncoated (no PEI) steel plate for smooth finish using SuperSticky from LoneStar Makers.  Adhesion has been even stronger for ASA than ABS with SS.  VisionMiner Nano Polymer Adhesive had been my main stay for all print surfaces, but with SuperSticky I can almost print with impunity. Unbelievable.  Both release nicely when the part cools to room temp and both of these also work on PEI.  Additionally these can be used as a thin coating film; use IPA & nitrile glove to refresh the surface adding a few drops of adhesive between prints, but not strictly necessary.  I have made large prints using NP on FR4 where the entire magnetic bed plate was lifted but the print stayed attached to the bed plate with no warping

Edited February 23 by VoronManiac

[NikosSprocket]

@BrentDW Most of the time I print with ASA/ABS with my 2.4r2s (300 and 350mm). I always pre-heat the chamber to ~60 deg. C before start printing. I do not have a separate thermistor for the chamber temperature; I just use the hotend thermistor. I have a macro that moves the head to the middle of the chamber (150,150,120mm for the 300), it turns on the part fan to 100%, and of course turns-off the hotend. Then after 30 minuntes or so, I read the temperature from the Mainsail page. The whole Voron OEM cabinet vent is being replaced with a blank cover, and all the plexiglass panels are airtight (as can be!) with thin weather strip foam. My printers are located in a relative cool garage, and I am running a Nevermore V5 Duo (check update at bottom of message!) Voron cabinet filter during ASA/ABS prints; it also helps with circulating the warm air in the cabinet during printing.

Also, do you use specific Heatmaps for your bed for ASA/ABS temperatures during printing? I have found out that the bed deforms even more at these temperatures, especial after 30 min. or so. My PLA and ASA/ABS heatmaps are quite different. I use standard aluminum "flat" aluminum beds and with PLA I get 0.065 when at ASA I gets up to 0.17!!! Btw from the four screws holding down the bed only one is very tight. The rest are "finger" tight to let the bed expand.

My PrusaSlicer setup below; which is based on Andrew Ellis's recommendations:

 

UPDATE: I just show @VoronManiac wonderful V2.4-Aire filter. A quick look convist me to give it a try and replace the Nevermore filter.

Edited February 23 by NikosSprocket

[Penatr8tor]

Hi @BrentDW,

I mostly print ASA/ABS on my VzBoT 330 but the same rules apply.

So just some info on how I print ASA/ABS.

I set the bed temp to 110c and nozzle temp at 240c. I do not change temps during the print. Bear in mind that I'm using a Diamondback nozzle so my nozzle temp will be 10c lower than a brass nozzle and ~15c lower than a hardened steel nozzle.

Warm up time is ~20-30 minutes and that is to get the chamber to ~40c and get everything warmed up and expanded. FWIW... My chamber rarely if ever gets to 60c.

I rarely if ever use a smooth PEI sheet. Sometimes I've used those hologram and CF sheets with a pattern that get transferred to the part but... 99% of the time I'm using textured PEI.

Bed Prep:

I try my best to have zero fingerprints, oils and/or dirt on my build plate. I clean it in the kitchen sink with Dawn and dry with a fresh paper towel making sure that there are... zero fingerprints, oils and/or dirt on my build plate. I'm anal about this and you need to be too if you want parts to stick. The washing in the sink I might do once a month or so. Between every print... bed gets a light alcohol wipe.

Bed Adhesive:

I've tried most of the methods...

No adhesive = I can print all day if it's PLA.

Elmer's Glue Stick = Works most of the time, makes a mess, makes your printer look like crap.

Magigoo = Works most of the time. I had problems with ABS/ASA sticking.

Nano Polymer Adhesive = Works all of the time, no matter what you print. This is my goto bed adhesive. It dries completely clear with zero mess and sticks like super glue, release parts with minimal surface whitening. Heat gun blown on bed facing surface removes the white coloring. At work we have 7 Bambu labs printers printing close to 24/7 and everyone gets coated with the Nano Adhesive. Trust me... this stuff works.

Even though I've already recommended the best bed adhesive...  You will still have sticking problems on occasion.

Do this... Add Mouse Ears in your slicer. I use Orca but, Super Slicer and Prusa have them as well.

And you should be good to go.

And FWIW... I know that the Nano Adhesive price seems to be really high... just remember you're using very little of it when you apply it so, it'll last a long time.

Good luck with your print, some prints can be excruciatingly painful. 

 

[BeerMedic522]

30 minutes ago, Penatr8tor said:

Hi @BrentDW,I

FWIW... I know that the Nano Adhesive price seems to be really high... just remember you're using very little of it when you apply it so, it'll last a long time.

Are you using the Nano straight from the bottle ? I had read somewhere that you can mix it with IPA at 3 parts IPA to 1 part Nano in a spray bottle  

[Penatr8tor]

12 minutes ago, BeerMedic522 said:

Are you using the Nano straight from the bottle ? I had read somewhere that you can mix it with IPA at 3 parts IPA to 1 part Nano in a spray bottle  

Excellent point.

Yes, I use it straight from the bottle but... I don't use the supplied brush.

I take 1/2 a sheet of paper towel and fold it into a square. Then I soak one edge of it with alcohol. I then drip a few drops onto the build plate and wipe the entire plate with the alcohol-soaked edge to evenly distribute the Nano Adhesive. Kind of like using wipe-on polyurethane wood finish.

I think diluting it with alcohol and spraying it is a really good idea. I'll have to give that a try.

But... no matter how you apply it... the Nano really does the job.

[NikosSprocket]

I will agree with @Penatr8tor comments and below are mine for ABS/ASA with a slight variation used on my V2.4r2 with SB now with brass nozzles.

3 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

I set the bed temp to 110c and nozzle temp at 240c. I do not change temps during the print. Bear in mind that I'm using a Diamondback nozzle so my nozzle temp will be 10c lower than a brass nozzle and ~15c lower than a hardened steel nozzle.

Quote

Warm up time is ~20-30 minutes and that is to get the chamber to ~40c and get everything warmed up and expanded. FWIW... My chamber rarely if ever gets to 60c.

smooth PEI sheet. Sometimes I've used those hologram and CF sheets with a pattern that get transferred to the part but... 99% of the time I'm using textured PEI.

Bed Prep:

I try my best to have zero fingerprints, oils and/or dirt on my build plate. I clean it in the kitchen sink with Dawn and dry with a fresh paper towel making sure that there are... zero fingerprints, oils and/or dirt on my build plate. I'm anal about this and you need to be too if you want parts to stick. The washing in the sink I might do once a month or so. Between every print... bed gets a light alcohol wipe.

Quote

@Penatr8tor nail this, and I completely forgot ;sorry. From my experience, a super clean from oils sheet is probably the most important preparation you can do and prevent a "bad" print. Funny story, I used to use our regular dish soap liquid and everything worked great. One day my wife switched it to some organic dish soap and I had prints failing more than 70% . After spending countless hours troubleshooting the printers, I decided to use my Simple Green - SMP13406 mix. (1:13 with water) which I use for cleaning parts in the ultrasonic cleaner, and guess what, all problems were gone!

Since then, I wash the sheet after every print; I would rather not but it is better than to have a failed print 6 hours later lol

Bed Adhesive:

I've tried most of the methods...

No adhesive = I can print all day if it's PLA.

Quote

I never used any adhesives. I use textured PEI for ABS/ASA as they will stick too well on the smooth PEI sheet and once it ripped a large PEI piece from the steel sheet, and smooth or texture for PLA.

@Penatr8tor do you think I could use the Nano Polymer to print on smooth PEI sheet with ABS/ASA or something else?

 

[Penatr8tor]

@NikosSprocket

You can definitely use it to print anything on smooth PEI. And for what it's worth... I don't need to use it for PLA but I do anyways, and I usually get 4-5 prints from a single application. I could probably get more than that but that's about the amount of prints before I start thinking... better add some more Nano.

I recommended it to the guys at work and once they started using it, it was the death of the glue sticks. 

[BrentDW]

On 2/23/2025 at 3:00 PM, polygonprint said:

Hi BrentDW,

I have been doing a bit of printing with PolyLite ASA of late. I find low or no part cooling works better, especially for larger parts. Check your part cooling settings. If your using OrcaSlicer or BambuLab I think the cooling fans are set reasonably high by default. I also find a textured plate doesn't have quite as good a holding strength as smooth PEI. I use a little bit of bed adhesive on my smooth PEI as ASA tends to be difficult to remove afterwards. I'm no expert, but the above is what I have found with PolyLite ASA. For your part in particular, I would use no part cooling (fan off).

Thanks.  I didn't realize the smooth has better holding strength.  Maybe time for an upgrade.

[BrentDW]

23 hours ago, VoronManiac said:

@BrentDW The chamber temp will be the deal breaker.  A 10C delta can be night and day.  Consider adding a thermistor to monitor the temp.  Knowledge is power.   I regularly print Zyltech ABS & ASA at 120C first layer then 110C remaining.  Max out the first layer nozzle temp with a slow first layer which it sounds like you are doing.  Make sure the printer temperature stabilizes for at least 40 minutes if the total time on the first layer is long because the printer will still be expanding otherwise.  For ABS & ASA my slicer macros are configured to heat the chamber to 48C before starting QGL which usually is about 20minutes.  Typ chamber temp after a few layers is around 60C.  Add some over extrusion multiplier for the first layer in the Slicer.  Textured PEI needs a little extra to fill in the texture valleys. When the part releases from the  bed while printing, it is caused by stress building in the upper layers, so it is not just the first few layers that need to be kept hot.

Consider sealing up the printer as much as possible. Add some pieces of insulating foam board around the printer.  I have no issues with ASA/ABS fumes when using the Aire filters, so no need to vent to the outside.  Nano particles still TBD. The Aire moves a bit of air inside the chamber so there is a slight boost in passive heating.

Lately I have been printing on bare uncoated (no PEI) steel plate for smooth finish using SuperSticky from LoneStar Makers.  Adhesion has been even stronger for ASA than ABS with SS.  VisionMiner Nano Polymer Adhesive had been my main stay for all print surfaces, but with SuperSticky I can almost print with impunity. Unbelievable.  Both release nicely when the part cools to room temp and both of these also work on PEI.  Additionally these can be used as a thin coating film; use IPA & nitrile glove to refresh the surface adding a few drops of adhesive between prints, but not strictly necessary.  I have made large prints using NP on FR4 where the entire magnetic bed plate was lifted but the print stayed attached to the bed plate with no warping

Thank you.  This is super helpful info.  I was afraid to to to far past the top of the range on the filament temp recommended by the manufacturer, but I'll try that.  I'm not having any string issues so I guess I have room.  For my first layer, I set a 0.5mm width vs 0.4mm for the rest.  Is that plus the 0.18 first layer height sufficient for over extrusion? Where did you put the thermistor inside the enclosure?  I'll def look into the Aire. 

[BrentDW]

22 hours ago, NikosSprocket said:

@BrentDW Most of the time I print with ASA/ABS with my 2.4r2s (300 and 350mm). I always pre-heat the chamber to ~60 deg. C before start printing. I do not have a separate thermistor for the chamber temperature; I just use the hotend thermistor. I have a macro that moves the head to the middle of the chamber (150,150,120mm for the 300), it turns on the part fan to 100%, and of course turns-off the hotend. Then after 30 minuntes or so, I read the temperature from the Mainsail page. The whole Voron OEM cabinet vent is being replaced with a blank cover, and all the plexiglass panels are airtight (as can be!) with thin weather strip foam. My printers are located in a relative cool garage, and I am running a Nevermore V5 Duo (check update at bottom of message!) Voron cabinet filter during ASA/ABS prints; it also helps with circulating the warm air in the cabinet during printing.

Also, do you use specific Heatmaps for your bed for ASA/ABS temperatures during printing? I have found out that the bed deforms even more at these temperatures, especial after 30 min. or so. My PLA and ASA/ABS heatmaps are quite different. I use standard aluminum "flat" aluminum beds and with PLA I get 0.065 when at ASA I gets up to 0.17!!! Btw from the four screws holding down the bed only one is very tight. The rest are "finger" tight to let the bed expand.

My PrusaSlicer setup below; which is based on Andrew Ellis's recommendations:

UPDATE: I just show @VoronManiac wonderful V2.4-Aire filter. A quick look convist me to give it a try and replace the Nevermore filter.

This is great.  Thank you.  I like your clever approach to chamber heating.  I think I will borrow that idea for sure and will look into the Nevermore V5. To your question on beds, I perform a bed mesh with the bed heated to my intended temp when I change filaments.  It deals with filament temp differential and any differences from washing and replacing the bed.

[BrentDW]

5 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

Hi @BrentDW,

I mostly print ASA/ABS on my VzBoT 330 but the same rules apply.

So just some info on how I print ASA/ABS.

I set the bed temp to 110c and nozzle temp at 240c. I do not change temps during the print. Bear in mind that I'm using a Diamondback nozzle so my nozzle temp will be 10c lower than a brass nozzle and ~15c lower than a hardened steel nozzle.

Warm up time is ~20-30 minutes and that is to get the chamber to ~40c and get everything warmed up and expanded. FWIW... My chamber rarely if ever gets to 60c.

I rarely if ever use a smooth PEI sheet. Sometimes I've used those hologram and CF sheets with a pattern that get transferred to the part but... 99% of the time I'm using textured PEI.

Bed Prep:

I try my best to have zero fingerprints, oils and/or dirt on my build plate. I clean it in the kitchen sink with Dawn and dry with a fresh paper towel making sure that there are... zero fingerprints, oils and/or dirt on my build plate. I'm anal about this and you need to be too if you want parts to stick. The washing in the sink I might do once a month or so. Between every print... bed gets a light alcohol wipe.

Bed Adhesive:

I've tried most of the methods...

No adhesive = I can print all day if it's PLA.

Elmer's Glue Stick = Works most of the time, makes a mess, makes your printer look like crap.

Magigoo = Works most of the time. I had problems with ABS/ASA sticking.

Nano Polymer Adhesive = Works all of the time, no matter what you print. This is my goto bed adhesive. It dries completely clear with zero mess and sticks like super glue, release parts with minimal surface whitening. Heat gun blown on bed facing surface removes the white coloring. At work we have 7 Bambu labs printers printing close to 24/7 and everyone gets coated with the Nano Adhesive. Trust me... this stuff works.

Even though I've already recommended the best bed adhesive...  You will still have sticking problems on occasion.

Do this... Add Mouse Ears in your slicer. I use Orca but, Super Slicer and Prusa have them as well.

And you should be good to go.

And FWIW... I know that the Nano Adhesive price seems to be really high... just remember you're using very little of it when you apply it so, it'll last a long time.

Good luck with your print, some prints can be excruciatingly painful. 

Thank you.  The mouse ear brim seems to be spot on for where I need the extra support.  Love it.  The Nano Polymer is stupid expensive...and will be here Thursday.

[BrentDW]

Thanks, guys, for all of the great advice and insights.  You all really gave me the full credit answers, as my teacher used to call them.  

[Penatr8tor]

1 minute ago, BrentDW said:

This is great.  Thank you.  I like your clever approach to chamber heating.  I think I will borrow that idea for sure and will look into the Nevermore V5. To your question on beds, I perform a bed mesh with the bed heated to my intended temp when I change filaments.  It deals with filament temp differential and any differences from washing and replacing the bed.

You're welcome,

Yup, Me too. I do a full med mesh every print. I'm using a Beacon probe so why not, it only takes 20 seconds to do 2 full passes.

A couple other points I forgot to cover...

I don't turn on any fans until layer #3 and when I do... I'm only running the part cooling fan at ~30% tops. I think that if the fan comes on too early, it can shrink the first couple layers and once it starts to pull away you get a cascade failure.

I printed this the other day... Same settings as I described, Polymaker ABS, N=240 B=110 Speed 200mm/s 10k accel on top and outside walls, 300 mm/s 10K accel print time 1hr-25m

[NikosSprocket]

2 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

@NikosSprocket

You can definitely use it to print anything on smooth PEI. And for what it's worth... I don't need to use it for PLA but I do anyways, and I usually get 4-5 prints from a single application. I could probably get more than that but that's about the amount of prints before I start thinking... better add some more Nano.

I recommended it to the guys at work and once they started using it, it was the death of the glue sticks. 

Thanks!

I will give it a try.