Couple of questions about the Voron TAP setup

[DennisM]

Howdy! I'm in the process of doing some upgrades to my 2.4r2. This started when my original CW2 extruder started exhibiting issues. So I've built a Galileo 2 and it's ready to go.

So in the process of doing that, I've decided to go for the TAP probing system and I got one of those Chaotic Labs prebuilt models. Also I picked up a couple of their idler gears with thumbscrews to replace my always problematic ones. Finally, I've decided to go ahead with the SB toolhead since I am coming from the AB world.

So with that said, lots of printing, assembling, etc. but it's spawned a few things:

1. I am assuming the tap will be my new Z homing, rather than the Z endstop switch just above the bed.
2. I've removed all the parts for the Euclid probe setup I was previously using for probing.
3. Do I need to remove the "auto Z offset" stuff from my calibration macro? How does the TAP handle the Z offset? I assume it can calculate it properly each time?
4. Do y'all do more than just the QGL (4 probes) with the TAP setup?
5. I've never used a "bed mesh" before, ever, so should I start using that now? How often do folks probe a new bed mesh? With every bedplate change?
6. Finally, I am excited about setting up a nozzle brush with "trash bin" so that the nozzle can clean itself before a print. I couldn't do it before because I was always afraid of shorting out the Euclid probe, which could technically rub the brush if a print was large enough to push the head close to the edge.

Thanks in advance for the advice and always helpful info!

 Dennis 

[zav3nd]

 

I built my Trident with Chaoticlab Tap V2, so probably similar.

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I am assuming the tap will be my new Z homing, rather than the Z endstop switch just above the bed.

I never installed my Z endstop, TAP does that. Just make it will trigger and stop before it crashes everything into the bed and keeps going, i.e. check endstops again.

 

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I've removed all the parts for the Euclid probe setup I was previously using for probing.

Not familiar so I'll sit this one out.

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Do I need to remove the "auto Z offset" stuff from my calibration macro? How does the TAP handle the Z offset? I assume it can calculate it properly each time?

I have my z_offset commented out, run PROBE_CALIBRATE and set offset that way. Then forget it ever exists again because nozzle touching the bed is what triggers the probe.

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Do y'all do more than just the QGL (4 probes) with the TAP setup?

Home - Z Tilt (QGL) - Home - Mesh

Keep meaning to change my extra homes to "G28 Z" instead to save a second or three.

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I've never used a "bed mesh" before, ever, so should I start using that now? How often do folks probe a new bed mesh? With every bedplate change?

 

I bed mesh every time. But I'm not really looking to save time on that side.

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Finally, I am excited about setting up a nozzle brush with "trash bin" so that the nozzle can clean itself before a print. I couldn't do it before because I was always afraid of shorting out the Euclid probe, which could technically rub the brush if a print was large enough to push the head close to the edge.

I've gone the route of retractions instead. Has worked well for ABS, retracts all the way out of the hotend at print_end and extrudes it all back at start. Think you'll be better off brushing at the end mainly since that would be where any oozing is cleaned, at start it may be stuck well enough to not get knocked off from what I've read.

 

[TitusADuxass]

@DennisM for bed meshing have a look at KAMP.  I've run this since installing TAP and it does a limited part(s) specific bed mesh prior to every print.

[netzwerg]

You don't need KAMP anymore for adaptive bed mesh.

It's native in Klipper now.

Just add ADAPTIVE=1 when you call BED_MESH_CALIBRATE.

So: BED_MESH_CALIBRATE ADAPTIVE=1

[TitusADuxass]

1 hour ago, netzwerg said:

You don't need KAMP anymore for adaptive bed mesh.

It's native in Klipper now.

Just add ADAPTIVE=1 when you call BED_MESH_CALIBRATE.

So: BED_MESH_CALIBRATE ADAPTIVE=1

Ooh I didn't know that,  muchas.

[netzwerg]

I forgot to mention: You still need KAMP if you want to use the adaptive purging feature.

So for now I am using the Klipper integrated adaptive meshing and the adaptive purging feature from KAMP.

I hope klipper will include the adaptive purging from KAMP soon as well. But if you just want the adaptive meshing, just add ADAPTIVE=1, that's all.

Edited April 30, 2024 by netzwerg

[claudermilk]

1. Yes, Tap is now your Z homing
2. Yep, no longer needed
3. I've also commented out z-offset in my config. Not needed with Tap
4. I run the KAMP bed mesh after z_tilt_adjust (Trident).
5. Doing a mesh is up to you. I still use KAMP for now. I'll have to take a look at the Klipper integrated method, but I like the purge and the smart park so I'll still be using at least some of KAMP.
6. IIRC, Chaoticlab gets you back to the original Y spacing, so a nozzle brush becomes completely usable again. With my printed Tap I can barely get the nozzle to hit the brush. That's good enough for any bigger globs or strings hanging off. Little ones will get mushed to the side when probing (that's why you probe/mesh at 150C).

 

[Dirk]

Well.. I believe all questions have been answered while I was formulating an answer

I can also recommend you the integrated Klipper version. It omits scanning the whole bed and only scans the area that you are going to be printing on. This reduces the time to do a bedmesh immensely. But also kind of obligates you to do a bed mesh every time. Which is in my opinion not a bad thing.

I also use KAMP's VoronPurge, because I had it already installed. But you can of course write your own macro for it. Also for the smartpark that is one of KAMP's Macros.

And finally with TAP it is good not to have plastic on the tip of your nozzle. So either an excellent tuning for the retractions or a brush is a good idea.

[MrSprinklz]

I guess I'll take a whack at this deceased equine. I also recommend the integrated adaptive meshing over KAMP but for a different reason. KAMP has been known to cause a shifting Z-offset for a number of people, myself included. I had first layer squish dialed in perfectly, then after a while it was giving me far to much squish. I would readjust on the fly or use PROBE_CALIBRATE, that would work until the next power cycle, even if I used SAVE_CONFIG. Klipper integrated adaptive meshing has so far been good in this regard.

I still use KAMP for Smart Park and adaptive purging, and like @zav3nd said I use a nice long retract in the print end instead of a brush. I'm also on printed tap, and actually have a 355mm bed not just the sheet. Adaptive purging has the option to load filament x mm before actual purge, set it to the same as your retract, then a nice thick purge line works really well.

Edited April 30, 2024 by MrSprinklz

[G_T]

In my limited experience based on higher temperature printing over 300C, I found a brush to be nearly useless. At higher temps it tends to smear the plastic over the nozzle as if it were paint. Unless the brush starts out clean, I often ended up with more junk on the nozzle than what I started with. That was particularly the case when going from a lower temp filament to a higher temp filament. Any low temp dust or scraps in the brush would melt and paint the nozzle. So I took the brush out. It almost never worked right. And I had such a nice scrubbing macro too!

Heck, some filament such as glass filled high temp nylon generates enough static upon extrusion that the tail will curve up onto the nozzle!

Retraction could also have issues because of delayed ooze (I'm talking about you nylon and polycarbonate). The only thing I found reliable was to retract, wait for ooze to drop down or end, decrease nozzle temp, and remove the tail with tweezers. Manually brush if necessary. Then Z zero etc.

A lot of my ooze issues are probably due to using a Mosquito that is air cooled but in a hot chamber. I don't think it has enough cooling on the top side of the heat break for an enclosed insulated chamber. I'll be swapping that out in a few weeks.

I don't recall any of this being an issue at PLA temperatures. But I'm running a pretty hot printer ( > 300C nozzle, up to 120C bed - soon to be 140C, and chamber up to about 80C - soon to be 90C), and my experience may not apply to the general Voron printer.

As for tap, I really like it. But you have to be really sure that the bed will not yield at all vertically when probing the back corners if the printer is a Trident or similar. Also make sure to do the usual and limit nozzle temp to 150C max during probing or you might damage some build plates. Some have a HDT right around 152C IIRC, hence the limit.

Gerald

[atrushing]

10 hours ago, G_T said:

In my limited experience based on higher temperature printing over 300C, I found a brush to be nearly useless. At higher temps it tends to smear the plastic over the nozzle as if it were paint. Unless the brush starts out clean, I often ended up with more junk on the nozzle than what I started with. That was particularly the case when going from a lower temp filament to a higher temp filament. Any low temp dust or scraps in the brush would melt and paint the nozzle. So I took the brush out. It almost never worked right. And I had such a nice scrubbing macro too!

I think I've seen a video of an IDEX setup using a spring steel plate with a parking routine to minimize oozing.

[Goldwaters]

On 5/18/2024 at 1:02 AM, atrushing said:

I think I've seen a video of an IDEX setup using a spring steel plate with a parking routine to minimize oozing.

I noticed this is what they used for the Voron Phoenix IDEX! That seems like an ideal solution - simple, works across filaments regardless of temp settings and retract etc...

I just wonder why it's not a more general approach to this problem across all printers..

[xiaoyao]

ANY CHANCE WE COULD USE IT WITH 0.2r1, SOMETIME PINT PARTS WITH THE MANUAL BED LEVELING VERY HARD

[mvdveer]

1 hour ago, xiaoyao said:

ANY CHANCE WE COULD USE IT WITH 0.2r1, SOMETIME PINT PARTS WITH THE MANUAL BED LEVELING VERY HARD

Not recommended,  as the pressure on the bed from the probe will give unreliable results. If you want a probe try klicky, Euclid, Zeroclick or even BL-Touch