What is your favorite Build Surface?

[ChicagoKeri]

I couldn't find a thread dedicated to 3D printer build surfaces, so here goes...

I have always had poor luck with 3D printer build surfaces.  Either too much sticking and bed damage or far more frequently, not enough adhesion and warped or outright failed prints.  One of the main reasons I built a Voron 2.4 was to get Voron TAP so that different build surfaces can be used without taking the limitations of an inductive sensor into account.

So, over time, I have tried Painter's tape, Glass plates, BuildTak,  PEI beds of varying types, PEX by WhamBam, the new and exiting embossed PE0 plates and even FR4.  None have been entirely successful at printing ABS.   Best results involved using Glue Sticks or better, Vision Miner "Nano Polymer Adhesive".   But finally, I came across LokBuild which has been around for quite some time and works great for ABS.

So here's the list:

Painter's tape. It worked sort of OK for PLA and not very well for PETG. I gave up on it long ago.

BuidTak. Again, worked OK for PLA, not as much for PETG 

PEI sheets, initially on a PRUSA Mk2S, through several upgrades to Mk3S.  Not bad. Sticks too well to PETG, needs glue stick to prevent this. Also needed glue stick for ABS to stick well.

Powder coated PEI. Works well on PLA  and PETG, TPU and ABS needed glue stick. 

Glass.  Needs glue stick or adhesive promoter.  At least it's easy to clean.

FR4.  The stuff circuit boards are made of.  Didn't work for ABS without adhesive and then only so-so.

PEX by WhamBam.  Not great for ABS without Vision Miner Adhesive.. Haven't tried it on other filaments yet.

The new PE0 textured build plates that leave interesting patterns.  Works OK on small prints with the Voron 0.2, adhesions an issue on larger prints. Fun patterns though!

LokBuild.  Finally! something that works great with ABS, my preferred filament.  LokBuild has actually been around a long time, at least 6 years.  ABS sticks well at temperature and easily removes when cold without damage to the surface.

 

Bed adhesion promoters:

Hair Spray:  My hair spray just doesn't seem to be of much help for 3D printing I gave up on it before removable spring-steel beds were a thing. Probably better for preventing excessive sticking.

Glue stick: Not all glue stick is the same!  The cheap glue stick from Walgreens works great but has been discontinued. The name brand glue stick didn't work at all well.  Even some authentic Czech glue stick is only so-so. 

Magigoo:  Doesn't work all that well for ABS on PEI.  Might be better for other uses.

Vision Miner Nano Polymer Adhesive. An unwieldy, buzzword-laden name and a high price but it does work pretty well.  It does seem to require frequent cleaning off and re-application but again, it does work.

Edited March 17 by ChicagoKeri
forgot one...

[mvdveer]

Didn't even know there were so many. Remember the glass beds from the Creality days and the painters tape - blue no less. Now I am using Powder Coated PEI (textured and smooth - cannot decide which is best) with Nano Polymer Adhesive every 3 months or so. Clean with 99% IPA after each and every print.  I think smooth PEI is better suited to ABS for some reason (no science here - just a gut feeling) ABS + prints better on textured - go figure.

 

Thanks of the write up

[Titus A Duxass]

I use PEI (textured and smooth) with watered down PVA wood glue as an adhesive. I really hated those glue sticks and the snots that they leave on the plate.

Applying thinly diluted PVA with a sponge brush gives a nice sticky flat surface free from snot.

I've also had some nice results with ABS on smooth PEI.

 

[Dirk]

I used my Artillery Sidewinder X2, to print all my 2.4 parts for. I built a wooden box with a window for it before I put it in the garage for this purpose though... The Sidewinder X2 is a bed slinger and has a glass plate. The ABS I used would stick perfectly well and NOT warp by spraying the glass plate with a hairspray, cheapest brand I found in the local ACTION store (Dutch china-import cheap but ok stuff store, meanwhile all over Europe) before starting the print.

The hairspray caused corrosion at the cable connections / PCB at the Y extrusion on one side, which was kindly replaced by Artillery.

By printing PETG on that glass surface (without any adhesive), I have pulled off layers off the glass because of too much adhesion and not loosening after cooling.

PLA was never a problem on that glass sheet. It always stuck, as long as the plate was level.

 

On my v2.4, I have had 'adhesion' problems, in the beginning. That is... 

 - without backers

 - before TAP.

I have been using the standard PEI sheet that came with the Fysetc Kit. Actually I made so many scratches in it (a man has got to learn to adjust his z-offset) that I used it to glue a FR4 plate on top. I am saving that combination for the first time I am going to print Nylon.

I bought a 350x350 doubles sided textured PEI sheet from IdeaFormer (16 euros) and that one I have been using since last august. Since I have the backers in place, I have no adhesion problems. Except when I wanted to print larger pieces.

- Since I replaced TAP with Cartographer, I can print on the whole bed, without any adhesion problems, without the need for brims, rafts or any other goo stuff. Simply on the same PEI bed.

 

Once a while I wash my bed with dish-washing soap.

After every print I 'wipe' the surface with scotchbrite from LIDL (standard next to the bed).

 

 

 

 

[claudermilk]

I'm actually printing on a PE0 plate as I type, using PLA. It works just fine and does leave cool patterns.

I mainly run on PEI which works well. Some plates needed a scrub with 600 grit sandpaper, and I occasionally need a dish soap clean or Vision Miner boost. i use these 99% of the time. I have a garolite plate for printing Nylon which has worked well for that.

[Guest]

I only print ABS and ASA but the LDO PEI is the best surface I have used in all my years. I didn’t even clean it and just threw it on right out the box to finish some stuff up one day. It has been going strong for over a month since. It sticks so well that it doesn’t wanna easily let go even when it cools sometimes. 
 

I can do full 350mm build plates without a single worry of any warping. 

Edited March 17 by ArkansasFPV

[Buurman]

#1 - PEI textured PLA, ASA and ABS sticks perfectly, never use anything to enhance it, and dont, cause its not needed, just get a good quality PEI sheet. (there is a lot of shit quality out there) link is too a good one, but not he only good one! as mentioned here, just avoid the very cheap stuff.

Remember on structured plates you sometimes need to run your nozzle a little closer to the bed, and up the flow a bit for first layer.

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005005533928406.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.150.54f879d28kNdJp&gatewayAdapt=glo2nld

#2 FR4 Green smooth (of course) this stuff is magic.. sticks like crazy, really, you cant get your print off while its still hot, but when it cools off, it just lets go. And the finish on the bottom is SUPER shiny.. impressive useful for some prints. You do need to keep the plate in place with something.. (tape on corners works fine.)

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005004695009823.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.188.54f879d28kNdJp&gatewayAdapt=glo2nld

 

[PFarm]

12 hours ago, mvdveer said:

Now I am using Powder Coated PEI (textured and smooth - cannot decide which is best) with Nano Polymer Adhesive every 3 months or so. Clean with 99% IPA after each and every print.  

What brand of Nano Polymer are you apply?

[mvdveer]

The Vision Miner Brand - 120ml bottle the most cost effective and it lasts forever.

 

[claudermilk]

That Vision Miner is magic. I don't have to use it all the time, but when stuff absolutely refuses to stick, putting a bit of that on instantly fixes the problem.

[MrSprinklz]

I used the nice glass plate on my ender for PLA until I got impatient about waiting for it to cool and release parts. I upgraded to the ender smooth PEI and it didn't work very well. I got a cheap textured PEI sheet that works great for PLA, but needed a layer of purple gluestick for ABS when I was printing V0 parts.

My V0 had a PEI sheet that looks like the LDO ones, but I got it from Amazon so who knows if it's the real deal. That sometimes needed glue toward the edges. Then I got a West3D smooth/textured thick plate for the V0 and that has been great. So great in fact that I have the same on my V2.4 and no need for glue, especially on the smooth side. It is thick enough that it doesn't really flex enough to crack small parts off, but I have mostly stopped doing that in favor of pulling the plate out and letting it cool. If I have to print PETG (basically just diffusers) I use the textured side and a few layers of gluestick.

Good PEI *should* work with ABS without adhesion enhancers, but there are a lot of factors at hand (first layer speed, first layer height, fan speed changes, geometry...). I used glue for a long time for the piece of mind and am generally in the camp of do what works for you. On my good plates, I wash with warm water, green scouring sponge, and dish soap (brand is Seventh Generation, probably doesn't matter as long as it's got good surfactants and cleaning agents).

I don't recommend IPA as a cleaner in most circumstances. It will get print residue or adhesives off, but it will mostly just spread oils from your skin around instead of picking them up. I use IPA on the printer at work, but I don't touch the surface and it's 660mm^2 so hard to find a sink big enough 

[Urshurak776]

I use finely textured PEI sheets from Fabreeko (Honey badger.). Worth the cost. Excellent.  In my 5 years in this hobby, best I have ever used. 
 

water and dish soap scrub every few months. 90% IPA wipe down between prints. That’s it. I don’t use anything at all. No glue, hairspray, gunk stuff, none of it. Full build plates on a 300mm 2.4 and Trident plus a V0. 
 

Proper level and Z height is key.  
 

95% of what I print is either PLA or ABS. 

[SuperBoppy]

My only experience is with three materials: glass, PEI, and garolite G10. The only materials I can speak to are PLA, PETG, ABS, and TPU.

Glass: Good with all four materials. Clean and apply coating. My favorite is hairspray. Coating is a must for PETG - it will literally glue itself to the glass if you don’t.
 

PEI: Clean thoroughly and don’t touch the surface - the oils from your skin will prevent the plastic from sticking. It helps to dull the PEI surface with a Scotchbrite pad. Works well with PLA, PETG, and ABS. I don’t have much experience with TPU.

Garolite G10: works well with PLA, PETG, and TPU. surface must be very clean and not touched, as explained earlier. I have not used it yet with ABS, but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. If printing TPU, use a coating of some kind- TPU sticks too well and will be very difficult to remove if you don’t.

[jetcat]

I started with glass and stayed with it. Parts get a beautiful shiny surface. You'll also get an astonishingly flat build plate especially with your cast aluminum plate underneath. As for adhesion, Vision Minor is the best. Tried several on your list and nothing else compares. The trick is in Appling it. Start off with a cool surface, shake then apply the adhesive, smooth out with a 1" foam brush using very little pressure to make a smooth but thickish layer. Wait for the alcohol to evaporate then preheat the bed. To get parts off (ABS or ASA), wait till the bed is below 60c-70c, open the doors then allow to cool further to around 40-50c. They should pop off with a light tap from your metal trowel. The adhesive is good for two or more cycles, but I find it does not do well if left for more than 12 hours.

Parts may get some noticeable white splotches. If they'll be visible in your design, you can use a fine cut compound like Meguiars Ultimate to polish them out or use a medium Scotch Brite pad with water if an eggshell finish is OK (this is much easier). The gold part picture is rubbed out and the black part processed with a Scotch Brite pad.

Yes, the glass will eventually chip or crack no matter how carful you are. It is one of the downsides to glass....

[Raniz]

I switched to FR4 a few years ago on my old i3 clone and it's fantastic. I mostly print PET-G and nylon though.

I hadn't printed ABS for like 6 years when I built my 2.4 so the PEI sheet included with the Formbot kit was my first experience with PEI (since FR4 works so well I never bothered to try it) and it's wondrous for eSun ABS+, I'm not that impressed when it comes to PLA and PET-G, and nylon doesn't stick at all.

Haven't gotten a FR4 plate for the Voron yet, but I've just gotten my local smithy to cut me a stainless steel sheet so now I just need to order a FR4 sheet of the right size, glue them together (Gorilla glue is supposed to handle up to 90 C) and I'll have myself a magnetic FR4 build plate so I can easily swap between that and PEI.

[midmadn]

On 3/18/2024 at 2:52 PM, MrSprinklz said:

I used the nice glass plate on my ender for PLA until I got impatient about waiting for it to cool and release parts. I upgraded to the ender smooth PEI and it didn't work very well. I got a cheap textured PEI sheet that works great for PLA, but needed a layer of purple gluestick for ABS when I was printing V0 parts.

My V0 had a PEI sheet that looks like the LDO ones, but I got it from Amazon so who knows if it's the real deal. That sometimes needed glue toward the edges. Then I got a West3D smooth/textured thick plate for the V0 and that has been great. So great in fact that I have the same on my V2.4 and no need for glue, especially on the smooth side. It is thick enough that it doesn't really flex enough to crack small parts off, but I have mostly stopped doing that in favor of pulling the plate out and letting it cool. If I have to print PETG (basically just diffusers) I use the textured side and a few layers of gluestick.

Good PEI *should* work with ABS without adhesion enhancers, but there are a lot of factors at hand (first layer speed, first layer height, fan speed changes, geometry...). I used glue for a long time for the piece of mind and am generally in the camp of do what works for you. On my good plates, I wash with warm water, green scouring sponge, and dish soap (brand is Seventh Generation, probably doesn't matter as long as it's got good surfactants and cleaning agents).

I don't recommend IPA as a cleaner in most circumstances. It will get print residue or adhesives off, but it will mostly just spread oils from your skin around instead of picking them up. I use IPA on the printer at work, but I don't touch the surface and it's 660mm^2 so hard to find a sink big enough 

So glad to see someone else post this. I'm 100% on board with your IPA sentiments. Good old Dawn dish soap and a blue scruffy pad side of the sponge - scrubbing in circles with hot water works amazing. Dry with a paper towel making sure not to touch it with your fingers and you're off to the races. No glue stick in my printshop anywhere. If it's not sticking - it's not clean, you're too high or too fast.

 

[MrSprinklz]

On 3/22/2024 at 5:34 PM, midmadn said:

So glad to see someone else post this. I'm 100% on board with your IPA sentiments. Good old Dawn dish soap and a blue scruffy pad side of the sponge - scrubbing in circles with hot water works amazing. Dry with a paper towel making sure not to touch it with your fingers and you're off to the races. No glue stick in my printshop anywhere. If it's not sticking - it's not clean, you're too high or too fast.

I use glue if I have 2 seconds to deal with a problem and I need adhesion NOW, but ideally it's not needed. Also I definitely use it as release agent for PETG and similar that bond a little too well on PEI

Edited March 24 by MrSprinklz

[dshess]

Just wanted to comment that when I rebuilt a printer to print my Voron parts, I was coming from an older printer where I printed PLA on Buildtak.  That was kind of a situation where it stuck almost too well because it prints into the surface.  So I was really worried about how badly ABS would go and had a stack of links for alternatives I had researched.  But I am also super cheap, so I just put down a layer of kapton tape on the bare aluminum.  I was frankly amazed at how well it worked, to the point where I was wondering if I was missing something.  Some of the bigger pieces had me worried that they wouldn't come off, but if I just "gently" rapped a long edge with the handle of a crescent wrench, the piece wouldn't move at all but it would break the suction (?), and then you could lift the piece right off.

I mean, it was horrible to put Kapton on the plate, and I had a bunch of spots I had to arrange around because a grain of dust or a pet hair or a bubble was under the tape.

[chrisalbertson]

what is best depends on the kind of plastic and, I think if the printer is enclosed or not.   I think you should deside of a textured of smooth surface based on if you want ther part to be texured or smooth.    Just a minutes ago I printed a new skirt segment for my Voron printer because I wanted to add a Keystone for Ehternet passthrough.  The texture will face out and is a component of the design.   Some other parts I just made worked better with the glossy-smooth look.

What I'm saying is that with a good build plate youcan design the part so that the side that shows is on the bottom.   Certainly, the bottom of my parts look better then the tops unless I sand and paint them.

I'm getting finishes on the bottoms that are flat/glossy enough I can see my own reflection in the ABS parts.    This works really wel for some custom wall switch plates I need.  These will be spray painted bu the gloss surface save a lot of work with fine sandpaper.  I used to have to sand off the glue stick texture before painting.

Next issue.  SOme magnetic build plates are double sided, others have bare metal on  one side.   I've found the ones with bare metal to stick top the magnet surface MUCH better.  A few times I've had a double side plate slide on the magnet, usually that is when I have enabled "Ironing" the top surface and on the small 120x120 plate.

[SuperBoppy]

2 hours ago, chrisalbertson said:

what is best depends on the kind of plastic and, I think if the printer is enclosed or not.   I think you should deside of a textured of smooth surface based on if you want ther part to be texured or smooth.    Just a minutes ago I printed a new skirt segment for my Voron printer because I wanted to add a Keystone for Ehternet passthrough.  The texture will face out and is a component of the design.   Some other parts I just made worked better with the glossy-smooth look.

What I'm saying is that with a good build plate youcan design the part so that the side that shows is on the bottom.   Certainly, the bottom of my parts look better then the tops unless I sand and paint them.

I'm getting finishes on the bottoms that are flat/glossy enough I can see my own reflection in the ABS parts.    This works really wel for some custom wall switch plates I need.  These will be spray painted bu the gloss surface save a lot of work with fine sandpaper.  I used to have to sand off the glue stick texture before painting.

Next issue.  SOme magnetic build plates are double sided, others have bare metal on  one side.   I've found the ones with bare metal to stick top the magnet surface MUCH better.  A few times I've had a double side plate slide on the magnet, usually that is when I have enabled "Ironing" the top surface and on the small 120x120 plate.

Acetone vapor smoothing works great with ABS. I made a chess set for my grandson using this method. The pieces look like glass. Also made a Roblox avatar for my other grandson using the smoothing method.

[chrisalbertson]

Can you tell us how you do acetone smoothing?   I get the general idea but know nothing about the practical how-to.  Please don't say you boil acetone on the stove or something.    I'm hoping it is easy and safe.

[Sly]

On 3/17/2024 at 3:03 AM, ChicagoKeri said:

  But finally, I came across LokBuild which has been around for quite some time and works great for ABS.

LokBuild.  Finally! something that works great with ABS, my preferred filament.  LokBuild has actually been around a long time, at least 6 years.  ABS sticks well at temperature and easily removes when cold without damage to the surface.

Today my LokBuild arrived. And it is unbelievable. I printed PLA without heated Bed. It works great. Even the first Benchy printed with ABS. It stuck on the LokBuild plate without heated bed. That is kind of magic ... A bigger ABS print didn't stuck on the nonheated bed.

Both PLA and ABS prints could be removed very easy. Have to check Nylon and PETG ...

I can imagine with a heated bed ABS will print very fine. No warping for sure.

I also ordered one of these green FR4 plates. Will check it later

Update:

I printed some parts (ABS) with different bed temperatures. The first prints stuck like hell. Now, the surface is a little bit used, ABS is warping a little bit at the edges. Without a spatula no chance to get the printed parts from the surface. And the surface of a black abs print looks light grey at the bottom.

50, 60, 70 °C didn't work. 80 °C worked first, but now not anymore. At the moment a print with 110 °C is running.

Update 2:

Print with 110 °C - no warping. Stuck very well. I attached a picture from the "grey" bottom. Black esun abs+

Update 3:

After printing a while and playing around i have mixed feelings.

Cleaning is difficult. On their webpage is written to not use Aceton or Isopropylalcohol for cleaning. This would destroy the surface.

But i had some remaining ABS at the surface. PLA and ABS didn't stuck anymore. Therefore i used at first Isopropylalcohol. No improvement regarding stucking at the surface. Then used Aceton. It removed the little parts of ABS, but also dissolves the surface a little bit. But now PLA stucks again. Next I used a very fine sandingsponge. Now the surface is like fabric new. PLA stuck again at room temperature - no heating needed.

Now I'll give the green FR4 a try ...

Edited April 10 by Sly
update with current info

[Ducky4546]

 

I used to Use Glass and Glue stick but the convenience of Textured PEI has won me over. It works very well for abs if you get it hot enough. I have also used the Vision Miner Glue for stubborn and warp prone prints. 

The Lok Build looks interesting! I may have to try that with the Polyterra Filament I am trying to use up. Boy does that stuff like to warp on big prints! It looks and feels great when it does work though. I have a beacon sensor on my Voron so I will have to get a blank steel plate to try this out. How thick is the sticker? 

 

[SuperBoppy]

13 hours ago, chrisalbertson said:

Can you tell us how you do acetone smoothing?   I get the general idea but know nothing about the practical how-to.  Please don't say you boil acetone on the stove or something.    I'm hoping it is easy and safe.

In the words of Pitch Meeting on YouTube, "Super easy, barely an inconvenience!" Find yourself an acetone-proof container that can be easily be sealed. Make a platform, or rig a way to suspend your part in the chamber. It's important that your part does not touch anything during this process. Line the sides of the inside of the container with a layer or two of paper towel - you can use magnets in a few spots to hold it to the sides.  If using a plastic container, use magnets inside and outside like a clamp to hold the towel in place. Soak the towel completely with acetone, and lower your part into the chamber and seal it. Wait about an hour - this is a trial and error sort of thing, bur I found an hour to be about right. When satisfied with the smoothness of your part, carefully remove it from the chamber and set aside to dry. Do not touch it until it's thoroughly dry. Voila! Smooth part!

My favorite chamber is a recycled pretzel container, because it's clear and you can see what's going on inside. I cut the bottmhalf off and use it like a bell. Also, I like to do this process outside, in my garage, with plenty of ventilation. I would not recommend doing this in the house.