PL-08N, ChaoticLab Tab V2, Cartographer, BLTouch, Klicky Probe, etc.

[Repman]

Hi there,

new year, rework old printer!
My 7 years old (!) working horse Voron 2.4-300 will be refurbished this year. Yesterday I read the excellent build diary of @Penatr8tor from 2024 and decided to rework mine too this year! As we are again 2 years further since then I need some kind of help regarding the leveling.
What unit should I choose?
I want to stay with my Al-cast bed, graviflex and springsteel surface, and with the Stealthburner for the time beeing, if this influences the decision. 
My state of knowledge:

• PL-08N - proven, but not very accurate, slow, not convenient for different surfaces
• ChaoticLab Tab V2 - proven, accurate, can handle different surfaces, but the nozzle always touches the bed (abrasion?)
• Cartographer - completely touchless, fast, accuracy?, different surfaces? No experience from my side
• BLTouch - no experience, more space(?), extruder modification(?)
• Klicky Probe - accuracy, complicated mechanism, no experience from my side,
• Something else?

Could you help me with the decision?

Regarding the wiring I still undecided, CAN or classic. I have a spare Fystecs Spider Board I wanted tu use.

Regards
Stefan

[therm_virtual0y]

I love my cartographer,  it has touch capabilities now and it just works.  The hardest part of installation is the tolerances needs to be within 2.6-3mm above nozzle .  There’s a tool you can print to get it right though.  I am unsure if your Graviflex magnet will work with it because of the way the magnets are in the sheet.  Should ask the manufacturer or the guys at Cartographer 3D.  God speed!

[Penatr8tor]

If you have individual magnets (not sheet magnet) on your bed you can forget any of the eddy current scanners, BTT Eddy, Cartographer & Beacon.

Of all of those on the list... I run Beacon Probes (4 machines) and I've also implemented and lived with all of the probes you've listed as well.

My $0.02 is... Get a Beacon probe. Cartographer is my 2nd choice. It is cheaper but not without its growing pains in the past. They may have things worked out by now but if you want the best probe... then Beacon. If you have individual magnets, you can demagnetize them and put a sheet magnet over them.

Eddy current probe is the best period.

[DanPin]

I have a ChaoticLab Tab V2. It is very stable andI feel it is an easy install. There is no abrasion that I can see, in addition, you probably cause more abrasion during print removal. I like the blue LED indicator to confirm it is working.

[Repman]

Thanks. My current bed is graviflex, which is magnetic over the whole surface. So as I understand it right, it should work with the induction-current-measering probes. There are obviously beds with dedicated Nd-magnets in the bed (the ones from mandela rose?). They make an inconsistent magnetic field which is poissonous for these kind of sensors.

[Penatr8tor]

1 minute ago, Repman said:

Thanks. My current bed is graviflex, which is magnetic over the whole surface. So as I understand it right, it should work with the induction-current-measering probes. There are obviously beds with dedicated Nd-magnets in the bed (the ones from mandela rose?). They make an inconsistent magnetic field which is poissonous for these kind of sensors.

Correct, looks like you're good to go for eddy current probes then. 

[Repman]

5 minutes ago, DanPin said:

There is no abrasion that I can see

Thanks Dan, nice to hear that. I thought the abrasion on the nozzle which gets grinded over the time. And what about accuracy of the Tab? Are you satisfied with it?

[Repman]

1 minute ago, Penatr8tor said:

Correct, looks like you're good to go for eddy current probes then.

It looks that way
One question regarding this, as I am not that familiar with it:

I do normally a standard QuadGantryLevelling, and thats it. In a video (it was from a VzBot) I so the cartographer running contactless over the surface to measure the distances on more than 4 points. I think the result was a surface profile which represents the topology of the bed itself.

Is it possible to use these topological values (not only four to level the bed) during the print. In extreme: If the bed is warped in the middle over one mm (only as an example ) than the printhead follows this topology and moves the printhead up and down along its path to keep always the right distance?

[DanPin]

15 minutes ago, Repman said:

Thanks Dan, nice to hear that. I thought the abrasion on the nozzle which gets grinded over the time. And what about accuracy of the Tab? Are you satisfied with it?

 

To be honest, I have never checked it since I installed it. This is because I never have any bed adhesion problems.

Since there is an optical switch, there should not be any hysteresis.

 

[Penatr8tor]

10 minutes ago, Repman said:

It looks that way
One question regarding this, as I am not that familiar with it:

I do normally a standard QuadGantryLevelling, and thats it. In a video (it was from a VzBot) I so the cartographer running contactless over the surface to measure the distances on more than 4 points. I think the result was a surface profile which represents the topology of the bed itself.

Is it possible to use these topological values (not only four to level the bed) during the print. In extreme: If the bed is warped in the middle over one mm (only as an example ) than the printhead follows this topology and moves the printhead up and down along its path to keep always the right distance?

My Beacon operates in one of two modes, Contact (where it physically touches the bed with the nozzle tip. And Proximity (where it probes like an inductive probe). I believe the Cartographer is the same.

This is my workflow on my 2.4-300 with Beacon probe, I assume it would be similar to the Cartographer.

1. Home: XY, Z is with proximity

2. Heat: Bed to print temp, nozzle to 150c

3. Quad Gantry Level: I use proximity mode, and it takes 2-3 runs around the corners to get it level.

4. Scan: I scan entire bed. 2 runs at 400mm/s takes about 20 seconds and gives me a scan with ~32000 points.

5. Auto-Calibrate Z: This time around I home only the Z using Contact (touch) and calibrate the Z offset.

6. Move to corner, heat up nozzle, prime, print. I have a Bambu silicone cleaning pad in the back corner for nozzle wipes. I wipe before doing any kind of touch/contact operation.

And I get perfect prints every time.

You won't understand the benefits of this probe until you've lived with one for a while b/c it will be completely press print and done. The other probes... Didn't work at a level where I 100% trusted them.

[Repman]

37 minutes ago, Penatr8tor said:

The other probes... Didn't work at a level where I 100% trusted them.

one that is not 100% reliable I already have

[Repman]

42 minutes ago, Penatr8tor said:

4. Scan: I scan entire bed. 2 runs at 400mm/s takes about 20 seconds and gives me a scan with ~32000 points.

That means Klipper has a mesh of 32000 points from which Klipper knows the distance to the bed? Does Klipper use this mesh to calculate the extrusion path of the nozzle?
To come back to my previous example: Can this be used to compensate a totally un-even bed?

[Repman]

4 minutes ago, Repman said:

That means Klipper has a mesh of 32000 points from which Klipper knows the distance to the bed? Does Klipper use this mesh to calculate the extrusion path of the nozzle?
To come back to my previous example: Can this be used to compensate a totally un-even bed?

The more I think about it, the more I think my last sentence is nonsense. Even if it would work I would get parts with uneven bottom. So forget that last thought.

[3DCoded]

I recently got a Cartographer v4 (USB) and it's been working awesome on my setup. Getting 20s bed meshes is super nice along with the faster QGL and tap homing.

[polyneutron]

Started with Beacon and bltouch. Someone mentioned Carto and been using it alone. First with can and ebb36. Now nighthawk usb and carto usb passthrough. Use it on a borosilicate glass bed with magigoo PC. Just printing pretty much non stop.

[Repman]

6 minutes ago, 3DCoded said:

I recently got a Cartographer v4 (USB) and it's been working awesome on my setup. Getting 20s bed meshes is super nice along with the faster QGL and tap homing.

20 s for complete mesh leveling sounds very fast for me! Very good.
You connected the Cartographer directly to your Pi or simular? That means I need an USB cable in my chain or umbilical?

Is it possible to connect the Cartographer to a toolhead board (CAN or multi-wired)?  

[Repman]

11 minutes ago, polyneutron said:

Now nighthawk usb and carto usb passthrough. Use it on a borosilicate glass bed

Ah I see, means the carto is connected to the toolhead board and the toolhead board via USB to the controller, right? So quasi "USB chain".

From my first printer (Hadron) I know "printing on glas" which worked well with PETG or PLA. From your comment I learn, that the carto works even if you don´t have a metal sheet in closed proximity to the probe, right?

[3DCoded]

40 minutes ago, Repman said:

You connected the Cartographer directly to your Pi or simular? That means I need an USB cable in my chain or umbilical?

Is it possible to connect the Cartographer to a toolhead board (CAN or multi-wired)?

You have a few different options depending on if you use USB or CAN.

 

USB:

• Plug into a Nitehawk (or similar)'s tiny USB port
• Wire straight to your Pi. The included cable is NOT rated for cable chains, so you'll have to use an umbilical. I installed this on a Stealthchanger, so I just installed an umbilical from the shuttle.

CAN (from what I understand, but I've never used CAN before):

• Wire inline with your toolhead CAN

 

Nitehawk 36 tiny USB port example:

Edited January 14 by 3DCoded

[polyneutron]

The usb cord from the Raspberry pi to the tool board. Carto needed a coaxial shielded cable from tool board to carto, of Beacon but Beacon didn't have touch to zero the z height where carto did. Have a glass plate over aluminum. Steel underneath will work too.that picture is correct. Carto comes with the harness that plugs into nighthawk. I had intermittent faileurs until I changed this wire to a shielded cable. 

[Penatr8tor]

1 hour ago, Repman said:

To come back to my previous example: Can this be used to compensate a totally un-even bed?

Yes... It will compensate for any irregularities in the bed surface where the quad gantry level process removes tilt. These two processes work together. On the first layer the head will move up/down to compensate and the remaining layers it will print without compensation. Think of the surface scan as a terrain map.

[Penatr8tor]

2 minutes ago, polyneutron said:

but Beacon didn't have touch to zero the z height where carto did.

Not true. Beacon had touch before Carto did. Cartographer is a Chinese copy of an American design, as most things are these days. The West innovates the East copies. (I'm going to P--- O-- a lot of people with that last statement LOL)

[DanPin]

Are we getting too much into the minutia on this? 

All I ever do is slice and go. Using the Voron 4 corner bed leveling with alu plate.

When I look at the bottom of a print, the surface always seems consistent and I have good bed adhesion.

What would indicate that there is a problem with the first layer print height on a print?

Aren't we mainly talking about 1st layer height, and a small different is squish-out on the suceeding layer?

 

Dan

[stefan63]

9 hours ago, Repman said:

Hi there,

new year, rework old printer!
My 7 years old (!) working horse Voron 2.4-300 will be refurbished this year. Yesterday I read the excellent build diary of @Penatr8tor from 2024 and decided to rework mine too this year! As we are again 2 years further since then I need some kind of help regarding the leveling.
What unit should I choose?
I want to stay with my Al-cast bed, graviflex and springsteel surface, and with the Stealthburner for the time beeing, if this influences the decision. 
My state of knowledge:

• PL-08N - proven, but not very accurate, slow, not convenient for different surfaces
• ChaoticLab Tab V2 - proven, accurate, can handle different surfaces, but the nozzle always touches the bed (abrasion?)
• Cartographer - completely touchless, fast, accuracy?, different surfaces? No experience from my side
• BLTouch - no experience, more space(?), extruder modification(?)
• Klicky Probe - accuracy, complicated mechanism, no experience from my side,
• Something else?

Could you help me with the decision?

Regarding the wiring I still undecided, CAN or classic. I have a spare Fystecs Spider Board I wanted tu use.

Regards
Stefan

Klicky Probe - accuracy, complicated mechanism!
I agree however I use it on an Ooooold  ender 3 Pro and it works like a dream, this old fellow have never printed tis god an d reiable since born.
Building a VzBot 330 (Printable version) right now and ah "Some issues" to straigten out much of it reated to my build based on an old Tronxy so space is restricted and a build with retractable/fold away probe is a need more than nice to have.
Anyone with advices are welcome to chear in
Kind regards/Stefan @ //stockholmviews.com

[Repman]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge with me. There was a lot of information I was not aware of, and your opinions helped me a lot, even if I´m still not 100% decided.

Best is: Sleep a night about it!

3 hours ago, Penatr8tor said:

The West innovates the East copies. (I'm going to P--- O-- a lot of people with that last statement LOL)

OK, Off Topic:

Myself, I´m not P----- O--, This sentence has a kernel of truth, but take two things in account:
1. For chinese people it is a compliment for the inventor if his invention is copied. He does not see the problem as we do.

2. If "western" managers optimize their profit by manufacturing their goods in Far East, teach the people there, how to produce these goods,  you can not expect, that intelligent, inquisitive and ambitious people will not exploit this and want to take part on that profit. Chinese can not be blamed for this.

Sharing knowledge, doubles the knowledge, unfortuneatly not the profit 

[Repman]

2 hours ago, DanPin said:

Are we getting too much into the minutia on this? 

All I ever do is slice and go. Using the Voron 4 corner bed leveling with alu plate.

That is what I did until now with my PL-08N, the standard Voron-Sensor from the BOM. Most of the time that works ok, but I had some trouble with it too. Sometimes the QGL did not finish due to out-of-range values and the printer prints curls in the air, sometimes I observed a trend in distance inspite of obviously correct setup, and sometimes it took 5 rounds until levelling was finished, taking 5 min of time while I was sitting side by side to the printer. 
The sensor is not the reason why I will refurbish my old Voron, but I think the refurshing is a good time to look for alternatives.