Florida 2.4 build heated bed experience

[billy bob]

Ok so yes i'm building a 2.4 350 x 350. When it was time to purchase the massive chunk of aluminum for the bed i was stunned at the shipping. My previous 500 x 500 build required a nice chunk but it was only half as thick, which it works great but the heater is a direct plug into the wall with an external control box, straight 110v. 

My research put this heavy beast around 180 to 200 shipped but my surprise when my amazon account could get it shipped to my door for 80 bucks, including the removable magnetic build surface. I have PEI film on my other printers so this is an upgrade i think, either way for 80 smackers I purchased it.

Ok so it's 220v, no problem I have an up converter that does 110 to 200 from a previous build,but it's only 500 watts so that's a blown fuse. A discounted 1000 watt up converter was had at 40 bucks delivered so i'm at 120 bucks invested now, still saving about 50 bucks, but it's a 1000 watt and the bed wasn't having it, the margin was to thin. (bed heater 1000w)

 

3rd try is 54 dollars, 3000w up converter, probably use it as a portable welder if this doesn't work.  Any way it works so my adventure for an inexpensive build plate ends, maybe should have replaced the heater with a 110v but it's working, and it heats up in less than a minute so there's that. As for the big brick transformer i don't mind plus it has usb power so i can power my raspberry pi from it. 

Getting ready to run some tests, I have 3 other home built cr10 machines cranking out some useful crap but have had some startup issues, had not used them in a month or 2, had a fan go bad on the hot end which overheated the boron tube and another have a hot end heater fail, so i spent some time getting these back churning out nice little baskets and cups to better organize my build parts. 

I definitely don't need a hobby and should get back to getting my boat ready for a Florida Keys fishing trip but it's raining so that can wait

Happy printing, or the pursuit of it 

[mvdveer]

Welcome and happy building. Interesting experience - sure we have all done that before. Now that I am a grumpy old man, that lesson has well and truly sunk in. My motto - don't compromise, just do it. 

[PFarm]

Welcome to the forum

[Penatr8tor]

14 hours ago, billy bob said:

I definitely don't need a hobby and should get back to getting my boat ready for a Florida Keys fishing trip but it's raining so that can wait

I was born and raised in Fort Lauderdale. In the summer... every day is a rainy day. Well, every afternoon for an hour or so anyways. 

Welcome to the forum, good to have ya on board. 

[billy bob]

Me too, well dade county, 70's and 80's were a true blast, did a navy tour in key West for 4 years, didn't like the military life, moved to New Smyrna beach to call it home. Still have the keys in my blood, will move to marathon when i sell my internet enterprise, Just having to much fun with all the technology. I designed and 3d printed a drone, used a completely GPS denied 3d computer system all for the fun of learning. Hoping 3d printer materials advance some more and my large scale builds can start producing marketable products. I have been building a screw pump system (3d printed) for calcium carbonate with the intention of printing reef coral structures, My adventure with voron was to get some experience with the cage design and more programming with the duet3 6hc. This home shop technology allows for some real creative opportunities, It saddens me to see older folks wasting away and not experiencing and learning. Even the youth are not motivated to expand their knowledge in design and production, sure there are some but you would expect more households to have operating 3d printers  or  cnc tools. 

[claudermilk]

Welcome to the forum!  Quite an interesting collection of projects you have going there.

3d printing is still in its infancy. It took a while for home PCs to become common--and not every household has one to this day. I recall being the only house with a computer for years, then the only one with multiple computers ("Woah, you have TWO computers?!"). It takes a while for things to mature and become more commonplace. 3d printing is still pretty technical and demands a minimum level of knowledge and skill, which not everyone has or is willing to attain.

[Penatr8tor]

1 hour ago, billy bob said:

moved to New Smyrna beach to call it home.

A good friend of mine has a place in New Smyrna right off of 44. I visited him this past March. We had breakfast at the A.M. Diner.

Small World Indeed.

[billy bob]

Yes your probably correct on the technical requirements, I guess i'm just that way. I remember building my first pc, just getting out of the intel 286 to the 386dx. I purchased a 386 sx 16mhz motherboard with a 80 meg harddrive, it was like 1000 dollars in parts but when the dos prompt appeared I was thrilled.  Now I have maybe 12 networked systems in my house with every OS, windows being my last choice, only if mandated for cnc or 3d scanning, scanning 3d being another one of those early technologies that is a  difficult to master breed.  Going from a physical item to cad to 3d print is a trip. 

Back to the voron, I get a kick showing people the mechanical parts assembled, that they are printed. I'm hoping the voron can do exotic materials, I built a machine that could print PEKK, it had a heated chamber and a pellet extruder during covid lock down. It was core XY, my first experience with this (XY). The complexity of the belt system was the downfall and the heat required. The voron I am hoping will get up there, that will be a blog post. I have a 350 degree hot end and a heater for the chamber, won't be using pellets, will try to see if my bed can reach 120 with the 220v 1000w heater.  That might be fun, I have 3d printers I want a machine that can do super strong parts without melting down, might be some aluminum parts required, time will tell

[billy bob]

New Smyrna Is awesome, been here 15 years, drive on beaches and low population, at least until now. Guess you can't stop progress, Florida is still a tourist trap though, low paying jobs and retirement seekers. Doesn't bother me to much except the current growth in golf carts and electric bikes, I just live in my large workshop and media studio killing time some would say.

[Penatr8tor]

2 minutes ago, billy bob said:

I want a machine that can do super strong parts without melting down

Easy enough to do... print a few parts of varying materials and bake them in your oven to see if you get creep. You can also induce stress into your test with a simple "U" shaped part with a screw going thru the uprights so that you can apply tension between them. This way you can determine which is the best material to use before building an entire machine only to find out that you used the wrong materials.

[PFarm]

@billy bob You mentioned CNC what Mill do you have, a few of us have built the Milo V1.5.

[billy bob]

Yes indeed quite a project but i have read other posts here on purchasing solid sttel from HF and going from there. I started with MPCNC build but realized quickly it was not really stout. I have been looking for a bridgeport to retro but lately so many units are becoming available. I have built a couple machines using UCCNC controller and they have a nice looking unit, cast, this is where i am trying to get. I have a couple years machineing experience with college level cnc training but never purchased a real mill. I can't justify the shipping expense, my current idea is to ask for build rights and have them cast in the US. I'm a believer in the heavy components, but i realize the utility of this build. 

I might accept the challenge to build this though, I have an extra UCCNC controller and software. Outstanding build though, I read all the posts a couple weeks ago, how your able to build in your kitchen is a feat most mont cant concur, hat's off to that

[PFarm]

Bridgeport is an awesome mill if you're serious about fabrication but your right can't warrant the shipping cost. As you mentioned converting one, I've watched some videos on people who have done just that. The heavier the mill the better! Nice that you have some machining skill, looks like you're a builder so you'll fit in here just great. Some of us struggle with leaving anything we build stock 

[billy bob]

On 8/6/2024 at 12:13 PM, PFarm said:

Bridgeport is an awesome mill if you're serious about fabrication but your right can't warrant the shipping cost. As you mentioned converting one, I've watched some videos on people who have done just that. The heavier the mill the better! Nice that you have some machining skill, looks like you're a builder so you'll fit in here just great. Some of us struggle with leaving anything we build stock 

I'm researching Epoxy Granite and some mill builds using it. 

Do you think we could make a set of  2 molds on this build Milo 1.5 to cast out of epoxy Granite

research:   Cast iron has at least ten times the dampening coefficient of steel, perhaps 100 fold, and steel has a higher dampening coefficient than aluminum 

 

[atrushing]

4 minutes ago, billy bob said:

I'm researching Epoxy Granite and some mill builds using it. 

Do you think we could make a set of  2 molds on this build Milo 1.5 to cast out of epoxy Granite

This, or the printed shell filled with concrete and rebar structure, is the direction I would like to pursue.

[billy bob]

5 minutes ago, atrushing said:

This, or the printed shell filled with concrete and rebar structure, is the direction I would like to pursue.

i was deep reading and the end game was filling the epoxy granite with sections of aluminum for max vibration absorption but i don't think it needs to be so scientific as just heavy. concrete is just to prehistoric to me and not exotic or cool.   I want the weight, and think the build materials and experience with the Milio 1.5 would make for a faster assembly. But I have not done enough reading on this Milo build to determine if this is an option. This build looks great i just want it to weigh 150 lbs or more, you know a heavy platform

[PFarm]

21 minutes ago, billy bob said:

I'm researching Epoxy Granite and some mill builds using it. 

Do you think we could make a set of  2 molds on this build Milo 1.5 to cast out of epoxy Granite

research:   Cast iron has at least ten times the dampening coefficient of steel, perhaps 100 fold, and steel has a higher dampening coefficient than aluminum 

What about filling the extrusion voids with epoxy granite?

[billy bob]

Ok i don't have any experience with any of the components on this build yet, without causing forum issues on the topic I was hoping to get an idea of the interest, kinda like an initial response like it can't work because of. Or mind your business we are happy with our process. I will have to get more information on the build it's self and find some help with the epoxy granite form design , hopefully a 3d printed one. My intent is not to ruffle feathers but to get a heavy mill for my shop. Yes there are lots of plans and mill builds and retrofits, this one looks like it has real potential and alot of support. I have to do some epoxy granite tests and get up to speed on that, this with some design research and some freelance cad assistance I might pull it off. 

actually your idea might make sense but I think the percentage of aluminum would be to high. I was trying to stay out of the technical forumlas i had encountered on this subject, it's way to complicated, I think a solid block of granite will work fine and be easily reproduced locally 

[billy bob]

On 8/8/2024 at 5:54 PM, billy bob said:

Ok i don't have any experience with any of the components on this build yet, without causing forum issues on the topic I was hoping to get an idea of the interest, kinda like an initial response like it can't work because of. Or mind your business we are happy with our process. I will have to get more information on the build it's self and find some help with the epoxy granite form design , hopefully a 3d printed one. My intent is not to ruffle feathers but to get a heavy mill for my shop. Yes there are lots of plans and mill builds and retrofits, this one looks like it has real potential and alot of support. I have to do some epoxy granite tests and get up to speed on that, this with some design research and some freelance cad assistance I might pull it off. 

actually your idea might make sense but I think the percentage of aluminum would be to high. I was trying to stay out of the technical forumlas i had encountered on this subject, it's way to complicated, I think a solid block of granite will work fine and be easily reproduced locally 

Building the base to make the mold,will try to include the legs

[atrushing]

7 hours ago, billy bob said:

Building the base to make the mold,will try to include the legs

Build diary?!

[G_T]

If you want weight, and don't care about the price, tungsten epoxy. Denser then lead.

Kevlar and fibers that are plant-based or similar to them have high vibration dampening. Carbon fiber is low dampening. Glass is also fairly low. But personally I do prefer cast iron.

Bridgeport - you don't ship it. You go get it. If you have no experience with rigging, get help from someone who does have the experience. I've seen groups of people use muscle to move around such machines. That's asking for bad injuries. A bridgeport is easy to move around with a j bar and roller rods. Even a Harbor Freight crane can be used to lift parts if set up carefully and the bridgeport is moved a chunk at a time. Been there, done that.

Expect to do a LOT of cleaning! I took about 50# of metal out of the knee of mine where it had accumulated.

Too bad I no longer have the Bridgeport. Someone else is getting good use out of it now.

Good luck!

Gerald

[billy bob]

Hey there G_T. 

Thanks for the comment, at one time a bridgeport was in the works, I had the desire to peruse a machining angle in my life, did some cnc classes, autocad but It just didn't stick, the maching career that is. I have worked in several industries requiring precision, alot of aircraft turbine overhaul stuff, where i am heading is wanting to be able to do production runs on smaller pieces mainly aluminum, I tried a mpcnc build but it just wasn't a good solution. a dedicated unit that doesn't take up much space is where i was heading, grizzly maybe, all these in the 4k range I just can't justify right now.I got into 3d printing pretty hard for about 4 years now, building a voron2.4 with the intention of printing more exotic materials is my objective but then i ran across a video of the milo. It just seemed like the right fit, maybe a bit on the smaller size but it's got instructions and a build community. 

Here is my thing most of what i see and comments i read relate to vibration when doing larger mods so I figured I would start there. I have read alot about how to dampen the vibs and for me a heavy structure is what I want. 

I am in the mold build process, Have been researching materials and costs. Alot of my research has brought me back to concrete. I do have and have read all the posts on epoxy granite, these taper down to the simplest which is epoxy 15% and sand.  I have these materials on hand but the countertop concrete system appears to be the cleanest and cheapest. Maybe some compression allthread installed. For the additional vibration absorption I will include a 2040 frame in the base and in the z tower. Yes it's my intention on the first try to cast a complete assembly with internal structure

Where I am at is getting a very large printer's bed leveled so I can run a 3dprinted full metal jacket template so I can build and incorporate the z rail mount, add some internal stiffners and make it one assembly.  Sounds kinda like it defeats the whole build it yourself community concept but I believe I can achieve a build that all the pieces, maybe up scale a little but in the end have a tight tolerance highly capable tool, just a little more weight. 

There is alot of information on manufactures using these cast base methods and alot of success stories. If I can the end game is to make it easy for others to create the mold and poor their own bodies. If I cant incorporate the z tower  I will just design in a bolt down system. if you look at the  pic with cast mill frames you kinds get the idea. These frames are super heavy and expensive, I think this can be accomplished at one's home with little expense 

Maybe I am getting away from the Milo objective, for me it's about maximizing the tools utility and keeping it inexpensive but trying to incorporate the lessons learned from others builds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[G_T]

Some years back I made some molds using epoxy + sand + carbon black (easier to see mixing). I had access to some just expired aerospace grade epoxy - good but no longer certifiable for aircraft manufacturing. That was good since I needed a few gallons and didn't want to use my $200/gallon supply of MGS. Sand was washed and kiln dried.

The thing about epoxy is (1) exothermic (2) cure time cuts in half about every 10C hotter or thereabouts (3) cure fast and the parts are more brittle with increased internal stresses so less long-term stability (4) with epoxy + sand you will be limited to thin layers accumulated while the previous layer is still fingernail dentable but no longer flowable.

You WILL end up with warpage during cure. Epoxy does nearly its entire shrinkage during the last 10% of its cure. I had 1/16" warp over 3'. Consider that a benchmark value.

You also want to take temperature readings and not let it get hot. I ended up with a "pour" every 4? hours for quite a while. No sleep... Parts were about 2 1/2" thick.

If you have the means to do it, you'll want to use a post-cure heat treat cycle to destress the parts and complete the cure.

Do NOT use West Systems epoxy made for wooden boat and fiberglass work. It ias a rather low heat transition temperature (Tg) and there is nothing you can do about it. Use something that can take more heat.

A machine tool such as a mill is often used with lube of some kind. If you intend to machine aluminum that is important since otherwise aluminum is gummy to machine. You want to make sure whatever binder you use for the sand (epoxy, vinyl ester, whatever) is highly resistant to whatever cutting lubes you might be inclined to use.

A sand/epoxy (or other binder) that is sand saturated will have a coefficient of thermal expansion not all that different than sand I would expect. It also has a relatively low coefficient of thermal conductivity, at least compared to most metals. If you want a precision machine, you want to look at rail material coefficient of thermal expansion and the coefficient for your frame to keep them as close to each other as practical. Ditto any other dimensionally critical parts.

Good luck and have fun!

Gerald

 

PS - There was some mention of higher temp printed parts earlier in this thread. Anyone interested might want to check out my build log.

Edited August 26 by G_T

[billy bob]